Guns and Children

from JoeUser Forums
On a summer day just shy of twelve years ago, we brought our oldest girl, Destiny Marie, home from the hospital. As young, new parents, we spent many hours discussing the future we had for our new daughter, who, of course, was practically perfect in every way. She would not watch TV outside of a few videos, she would not date when she was a teenager (we still believe the idea of courtship is far closer to God's way of selecting a mate...but discussing that here would set this blog far afield), and, most importantly, she would never play with toy guns. Real guns, in their proper context, were ok, but we did not want her getting the idea that guns were a toy. These rules were hard and fast, immutable, and would apply to our children.

Boy, were we fools.

As Father Time pushes my precious oldest child to the precipice of adolescence, so many things have changed. While we still eschew the excessive television that seems to be endemic to our culture, we have relaxed the rules considerably. In large part because our children have never given us cause for concern with their behaviour that the TV might be a problem. They watch a lot of TV, but in pales in comparison with the hours they spend outside playing, exploring, living the kind of life children were meant to live.

On the dating scene, I still have my preferences and they haven't changed, but as Dessie grows closer to adulthood, I realize it's important to give some consideration to what SHE wants. What is most important for me is for her to know that we will always be here, and while I would prefer she share her values, I would rather sacrifice an absolutist position and keep the relationship intact so that if she ever needs a place to return to, she'll know that this IS the place, even if we may not always agree with the decisions we make. My relationship with my children is paramount; there have been many times when I wished I had caring parents to turn to and I won't leave my children with that same unfilled void.

But of these three positions, I believe the gun issue is the one where we were most naive. If I were to go through the house, I would probably find 20 or more toy guns. I still am not crazy about the idea of toy guns, but I will say that even toy guns are not the problem. Children can be raised in a gun culture responsibly; much of the key lies in making sure they know when and where gun use isn't appropriate. And just as children CAN tell fact from fiction (another stresser was Santa Claus; at first we were an SC free zone; now, while we don't teach Santa as real, we do have more Santa stories around the house; the kids have no difficulty whatsoever with Santa-as-fairy-tale-character), they can discern the difference between real and toy guns. A watergun's fun in one way; an AK-47 is fun in an entirely different way (laughs wickedly).

Sometimes it's amazing to see how much differently things become than we perceive them. If I were to encounter the twelve year younger me, though, I wouldn't tell him to do anything different. All in all, I believe our journey has been a good one.

But I WOULD tell him to get a little extra sleep. And that maybe losing a few extra pounds back then could help.
4,223 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

We never had a ban on guns in our house.  And the kids did not seem to crave them or shun them.  They seemed to have the same attitude - no big deal.

and boy did you leave some openings for some ribs!

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
and boy did you leave some openings for some ribs!


I don't care. I am who I am, without apology. Some people may think ill of it, but I'd probably be just as critical of their philosophy, so it's all good, as long as they let me raise my children as I see fit.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

Sounds like you're doing just fine.  Why cause a discipline problem where there isn't one?  Too many parents make the rules when they start their family, but don't modify them to fit the family dynamic.  Kids who become discipline problems need a more firm hand than those who aren't... so why keep the firm hand beyond it's usefullness.

You are right, keeping communication lines open is much more important than rigidly sticking to your guns when it's no longer necessary.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
With three boys in the house we had toy guns in the house. I don't remember them even using them that much. I grew up on the whole cowboy and Indian thing so it wasn't a biggie for me. I've seen kids pick up sticks and use them as guns so it's not going to stop them if they want to play cops and robbers anyhow.

When the boys were teens they didn't even ask for a real gun that I remember. I vaguely remember one of them asking for a bee bee gun but that was about it. He never got it. We just really were not that into guns.

Now I have one son, of course the one that's in the military, getting into guns big time. He seems to have a fascination for them. He's into collecting them and now I worry about my new grandson growing up with real guns in the house although I respect anyone's right to gun ownership.

We limited the TV when the kids were small. We wanted to see them outside building forts and playing with their tonkas or on a rainy day building with their legos. I remember making all kinds of homemade play dough during those years. I remember how ugly they'd get if they sat around watching too much tv like on a Saturday morning watching cartoons. I found the more tv watching, the more fighting they did.

Once they hit 12, it's time to put on the seatbelt. I have a friend here who has 7 daughters. We were just talking about this. I can't even imagine doing the "girl" thing.....forget about times seven!!! The boys were fairly easy but even so.....12 was a rough year for all of them. It seems to be a turning point year.

Good Luck. Remember your job is to get them to 18 in one piece!
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
12 was a rough year for all of them. It seems to be a turning point year.


WHAT?!

Nobody told me about this turning point stuff. There will be no turning point stuff until he lives in his own place.

Period.

Why is it I can still hear the blinker going off in my head?
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Maybe you're just one of those old people drivers who leave their blinker on ALL the time.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why is it I can still hear the blinker going off in my head?


blink, blink, blink, blink.....don't shut your eyes Tova. Eyes straight and alert!

Watch for the big uphill. It's coming your way......and please don't crash! Your job is to get him there in ONE PIECE!

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't care. I am who I am, without apology. Some people may think ill of it, but I'd probably be just as critical of their philosophy, so it's all good, as long as they let me raise my children as I see fit.


Sorry Gid, you missed my smiley. By ribs, I was not talking of your position, but statements like the following.

On a summer day just shy of twelve years ago, we brought our oldest girl, Destiny Marie, home from the hospital.


And the rim shot being "Why did you leave the rest at the hospital?".

Your article is a tale of a journey of a parent. And a good one. I have no criticism of your decisions or life style as I think all parents have gone through a similar journey.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
My kids are my life. The whole toy gun thing is no big deal to me. My kids have had them and are not that much attached to them even though they both (ages 8 and 4) have had their share of video games with guns. I remember making machine guns out of 3 pieces of wood. We would put 2 nails in a V shape at the front end and nail a clothes pin to the back. We would use a rubber band and look for soda cans and beer cans to get the tabs to use them as ammo. Great times, no one ever got hurt. Luckly.

My brother tried to no guns at home deal. Eventually he found himself buying them cause everyone had one and unless he kept the kids away from every child in the neighborhood they would get their hands on one anyways. Besides who can resist a SuperSoaker?

You seem to be doing a great job Gid. I look forward to my 3 child once I am in a better financial position. Hopefully a girl, but if a boy will love him all the same.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello All,

There is only one purpose for a gun: kill. That is what it does. People who use them are killers. Even if its a paper target, the intent of the target is to sharpen the skill to kill. Toy guns only feed the fantasy. Ban guns? Perhaps. I would rather we teach our children and ourselves that violence and the implements of violence are wrongheaded and harmful. I would rather we offer our children a disciplined spi ritual practice that protects them from the poisonous fantasy that violence and the threat of violence is a way to peace.

Be well.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I feel that the main purpose of a gun for most people is not to kill, but to threaten to kill. Policemen have guns, but for the most part, do not shoot people. Sometimes they do, because they do not surrender to the threat. But most people do surrender to the threat of a gun, making the primary purpose to gain control over another, not to kill another.

Some people definitely are killers though, and have guns for killing.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Have to disagree with you here, Sodaiho. Yours is close to the position I used to take, although I never took the argument as far as you do (I feel there are two justified reasons for killing: self defense and food).

But to my kids a water gun is not an instrument of death, it is an instrument of soakage. It just so happens that the shape of a gun is the most efficient way to deliver mass quantities of water to your intended target. As for cap guns, well, all you have to do is to remember to be young to remember what fun they are.

My kids play with toy guns and yet they are the least violent children you will find. When they encounter a scorpion, they put it in a jar and carry it across the field to its release. So the idea thaat gunss teach violence is wrong.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
There is only one purpose for a gun: kill. That is what it does. People who use them are killers. Even if its a paper target, the intent of the target is to sharpen the skill to kill. Toy guns only feed the fantasy. Ban guns? Perhaps. I would rather we teach our children and ourselves that violence and the implements of violence are wrongheaded and harmful. I would rather we offer our children a disciplined spi ritual practice that protects them from the poisonous fantasy that violence and the threat of violence is a way to peace.


While I know you mean well I have to disagree as well. There are guns that are used to wash cars, there are guns that are used to apply glue, there are guns that set nails, there are even guns that tell temperatures and speed. When trying to make a point I would suggest being a bit more specific.

Another thing, I don't believe guns that shoot bullets have only one purpose. I believe that guns that shoot bullets do kill, but they can also deter, disarm and immobilize. The effects of the gun depend on those who use them. We could ban guns all we want but that's nothing a knife, a rock, a bomb, a bat or even a car could not do. A person determination to do harm will not depend on the weapon but on their mind set.

I agree that it's a good idea to teach our children that violence does not solve problems. But I will not take away the ability to defend himself if he finds himself in a situation where becoming violent by fighting back is his only chance of survival. As much as I want for this world to be free of violence I accept the reality that even as a form of defense, violent actions will always exist.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
A person determination to do harm will not depend on the weapon but on their mind set.


True, but the techniques available to them will determine the extent of the harm they can cause. For example you can kill a couple of hundred with a carbomb and up to a couple of dozen with firearms, but a crazed knife-wielding lunatic only has the capacity to take out a couple before they tire or get mobbed.

When I was a kid my parents never gave me any toy weapons of any kind. My friends had them so I just used theirs when we were playing. I don't think it had a lot of effect, although admittedly I would be distinctly uneasy if I saw guns lying around someone's house. I see guns as something for police and the army, not ordinary people. The police have guns so we don't have to.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
CharlesCS1


Excellent response!
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
True, but the techniques available to them will determine the extent of the harm they can cause. For example you can kill a couple of hundred with a carbomb and up to a couple of dozen with firearms, but a crazed knife-wielding lunatic only has the capacity to take out a couple before they tire or get mobbed.


So true, but in the end it's the end result that we look at, murder or death, how ever you wanna put it.

When I was a kid my parents never gave me any toy weapons of any kind. My friends had them so I just used theirs when we were playing. I don't think it had a lot of effect, although admittedly I would be distinctly uneasy if I saw guns lying around someone's house. I see guns as something for police and the army, not ordinary people. The police have guns so we don't have to.


I think that people who do have very little or no education in firearms should not be allowed to own one. I can understand the reasons, in this day in age we may want to do the right thing by trying to eliminate guns but that wont stop criminals from aquiring them. Still the idea that someone would want to solve a problem by pull out a gun simply because they just happen to have it kinda sucks. I too grew up around violence, some of my favorite cartoons and movies have violence written all over them. But I always took it as fantasy while learning how to steer clear of those who would most likely have and use them. I hope my kids follow in my foot steps, as oppose to getting a gun to defend my family I would rather try to live where the chances of needing it are low and I would do my best to avoid bringing those reasons to my home.


Excellent response!


Well thank you Doc, I do what I can. I may not be very educated like many are on this site about history, politics and/or science, but I can be very passionate about what I believe in and will admit when I a wrong.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Still the idea that someone would want to solve a problem by pull out a gun simply because they just happen to have it kinda sucks.


Yeah, but it's also true. Gang violence in Australia mostly involves samurai swords, bats of various kinds, chains, and the very occasional handgun. Gang violence in the US seems to involve pistols and uzis. Admittedly the US gangs probably don't use legally acquired guns either, but there must be a reason they have them.

If we could figure that out - why the US has so much more firearms crime than other, similarly or more highly armed societies like Israel or Switzerland - then we'd know a lot more about people in general.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
If we could figure that out - why the US has so much more firearms crime than other, similarly or more highly armed societies like Israel or Switzerland - then we'd know a lot more about people in general.


Oh that's easy. As I have always said before and it is proven time and time again everyday in this country, the average American is lazy. So lazy that it would be easier, while more cosntly, to shoot someone with a gun, especially from far away, than to learn how to use a samurai sword. Sad, isn't it?
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
If we could figure that out - why the US has so much more firearms crime than other, similarly or more highly armed societies like Israel or Switzerland - then we'd know a lot more about people in general.


Oh that's easy. As I have always said before and it is proven time and time again everyday in this country, the average American is lazy. So lazy that it would be easier, while more cosntly, to shoot someone with a gun, especially from far away, than to learn how to use a samurai sword. Sad, isn't it?


I disagree, Charles. There are a few answers, one is almost completely obvious in the societies he cites. What do Israel and Switzerland have that the USA does not? Universal military service. In other words, citizens in Israel and Switzerland are well trained in the proper operation of firearms.

It is also important to note that this particular brand of violence is almost exclusive to a certain subculture: the inner city youth. People in rural America have MORE weapons than most in the inner city, yet they are not used in the same manner in NEAR the percentages that they are in the inner cities. Our inner city destructive subculture is one our politicians sadly allow for various reasons that would take too much time to discuss here.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gid

I would hope you would rather say "not only that" or "not at the top of the list though". I understand what you are saying, I was just simply trying to let out some steam about how people in this country just let things happen and do nothing about it.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was just simply trying to let out some steam about how people in this country just let things happen and do nothing about it.


Oh, I understand. I just thought it was interesting that the answer to his own question was obvious in the question.

Yes, laziness is a part of it (and I DID appreciate the sarcasm: "wanna kill someone? Man, a Samurai sword's HEAVY, and you have to [gasp!] TRAIN!"), but when you look at the violence that is largely contained in a society that operates on a welfare based economy, it seems inappropriate to point at the rest of the culture for sloth. There are other factors involved.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
There are other factors involved.


A lot of them, sad to say.

but when you look at the violence that is largely contained in a society that operates on a welfare based economy, it seems inappropriate to point at the rest of the culture for sloth


I can't help it. It is only now that the American people are starting to get their butts out of their chairs and doing something about the problems in this country. The killing of the bill after the switchboard was shut down is a sign of it. Let's just hope this is not just a "last drop of gas in the tank" moment and they revert back to their chairs and back to "So you think you can dance?, Man Vs Wild, American Idol Rewind and/or America's got talent".