Christians limit their God

You've actually come very close to addressing a paradox that I address frequently: what I call the "paradox of the grace only Christian".

Let me explain it this way. To the "grace only" Christian, our salvation is wholly dependent on God's grace in overlooking our shortcomings. The bumper sticker saying "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" comes from this point of view.

Now here's where it gets sticky. Almost without exception, "grace only" Christians are quick to point out other groups and explain why they aren't going to heaven. Isn't a God who's big enough to forgive OUR shortcomings big enough to forgive theirs as well?

Now, to your point about forgiveness: God is certainly able, I won't question that. But I WILL question the irony of an atheist who demanded all of his life that there is no God demanding that God save him regardless.

God does have infinite love and forgiveness.  Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just a chosen few.  The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves.  If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it.  Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?

Excellent point, Para.

I'm having deja vu with your article and the comments. No insult intended!

The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves. If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it. Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?

What he said!  And very well I might add.

John 3:18:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Basically, he sent his Son to die for you. If you reject that, he's going to be pissed. If you accept that, there will be no condemnation. The only thing I can point out for a group of people is that they didn't believe in the name of Jesus, therefore they're not going to heaven. Anything else about them has nothing to do with it, there's only one choice to get in or stay out.

His forgiveness is NOT INFINATE, you just cannot keep making the same sin over and over and over , ask for forgiveness and go about your business. You ask for forgiveness, then you do NOT keep sinning the same way over and over again. If you do there will be hell to pay..... literally!

I disagree. I don't think that God's love, forgiveness, etc. is qualitatively different than the love that you and I are able to show. I think that it is God's infinite patience that makes all the difference; if we had that patience, in addition to God's holistic perspective, we would be capable of that same forgiveness.

Sounds to me like Christians are limiting not God, but themselves.

Dan

I have a diff take than what is presented here.....but I'm sure you're already aware of this....LOL.

What do you do with scriptures that say it's impossible for us to turn to God? How do you reconcile that? Like Romans 3:11 which says...... "there is NONE that understands, there is NONE that seek after God."

From what I see in scripture and from my own life I'm not even good or wise enough to pick him myself. Sort of like well educated in theology Paul...even he wasn't smart enough or good enough because he needed a kick in the pants himself.

Jesus said....You did not choose me, I chose you. Eph 1 says God does the choosing, the son does the redeeming and the Holy Spirit does the sealing. I don't see "us" doing anything until after our eyes are opened.

God is all powerful...all loving.....all forgiving....but he's also Sovereign and a God of Justice. It's his call, not ours.

I would encourage you to consider more carefully how you represent scripture. This is a misquotation. Romans 3:11 is a quotation. Romans 3:10-11 says "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.'"

"As it is written" refers to Psalms 14:2. "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any who understood, dealt wisely, and sought after God, inquiring for and of Him and requiring Him [of vital necessity]. They are all gone aside, they have all together become filthy; there is none that does good or right, no, not one." (Amplified)

I quoted the Amplified version because it gives a little more insight into the meaning of the text. Psalms, as you'll no doubt recall, is a book of songs. David in particular wrote very little about events--at least, in the concrete sense. He more often wrote about how he felt, and how he (and the Lord) dealt with those feelings. So in Romans 3:11, the bible does not say we are incapable of turning to God. It says that "no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:20, NIV).

I say all this because without free choice, God is little more than a puppeteer. I love being a child of God, but I resent being called a puppet. As Capt. Jack Sparrow would say: Savvy?

Dan

Actually when you read the whole passage v10-18 it is as you said goes back to the OT. A number of verses Paul quotes and paraphrases including....Ps 5:9, 10:7, 14:1-3; 36:1; 140:3 and Isaiah 59:7-8.

His indictment of the Jews has the authority of scripture behind it. As far as 14:1, the one you quoted...Paul cites this and v3 in Romans in support of the universal and perennial sinfulness of mankind. It wasn't just for the OT sinners.

I do agree with you as far as saying "no one will be declared righteous in his signt by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." I also like how you went to the end quoting v20...using the word "therefore" does indicate we need to go back to what was previously stated going all the way back to v9. Good job.

But I disagree when you say we are "capable" of turning to God ourselves. I think scripture is quite clear...we are not.



well I respectfully disagree. And I don't think you or I are puppets either. You're a freewill believer and I'm a God's Election believer...although I do say when asked that I believe in both freewill and Election. I just believe the freewill comes after salvation, not before. We are chosen and then exercise our freewill. That's why you have so many Christians out there at various "ages." Some stay babies for a long time and others serve and grow quickly. It's freewill.

It's like this: once born into a family (no choice-elected) you then have the right to love, honor or obey (freewill) your parents as you live your life. Some children in the same family are very good at this and some are not.

For further reading you may want to meditate on John 1:12-13 and Ephesians Chap 1 & 2. I was where you are now and this was just the tip of the iceburg for me.

Here's another take: Maybe God limits His Christians.

Just a thought.

The "Election" Christian concept displays a level of conceit and arrogance that is simply incredible.

I graciously avoided condescension when I responded to you. Please extend the same courtesy to me.

More to the point, KFC: your views present no argument to the cliche objection to God's Election. If God picks and chooses who becomes a Christian, He is choosing who goes to heaven, and conversely who goes to Hell. If God chooses who goes to Hell, then it is not because we have sinned, but simply because we weren't chosen. You are suggesting that God made BILLIONS with a destiny of eternal damnation. Reread that last sentence. Billions.

And besides, if that were the case, how would 2 Peter 3:9 make sense? "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (NIV)

What is the purpose of evangelism?

If individuals are chosen as "elect," why not whole groups or races? Couldn't this become a basis for discrimination? Should this discrimination be sanctioned by the church?

"[God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4, NIV)

Just some food for thought.

Dan

PARATED2K POSTS:

B-I-N-G-O! This is the way I see it as well.

Asking forgiveness is part of "The Lord's Prayer" that Our Lord Himself taught us to pray. St.Matt. 7:9-13. V. 12 is the one in discussion. "And forgive us our debts (trespasses), as we also forgive our debtors." So asking forgiveness of God, Most Merciful is a prayer, a petition, to God asking Him for forgiveness.

So many are the things which display God's infinite power, and wisdom and goodness that whenever we turn our eyes and direct our thoughts toward Him, we meet the most certain signs of His omnipotence.

There is truly nothing that more elequently proclaims His supreme love and mercy towards us than the inexplicable mystery of our Lord's Passion and Death on the Cross from which springs the never failing fountain to wash away the defilements of sin on our soul. It's in this Fountain we desire to be merged and purified when we ask, no beg, of GOd to forgive our sins (debts).

Isaias 27:9 taught "The iniquity of the house of Jacob shall be forgiven; and this is all the fruit that the sin thereof shall be taken away."

David said the same, "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven."

Asking forgiveness of our sins is so important for our happiness in this life and to the attainment of salvation in the next life.

So when you think about it asking for or petitioning forgiveness of our sins is really a manner of praying...and this can be done by anyone, anywhere, at any place. Since we are asking God for a spiritual good, that is pardon of our sins, we must be in the proper disposition, so to speak.

We start our prayer of petition by acknowledging our sins which have blackened our soul, next be truly sorry for having committed them with the firm purpose of sinning no more. We petition God as our Father, not as a Judge, imploring Him to deal with us not according to His Justice, but according to His mercy.

We must be firmly convinced that God will grant us pardon. This confidence is necessary to sinners lest we would be led to despair that we could not obtain pardon like that of Cain and Judas who both looked upon God as an avenger and punisher forgetting that He is also mild and merciful.

So, here our Lord Himself taught us how great is the goodness and bounty of God towards mankind. For if God were not ready and prepared to pardon penitents of their sins, never would He have prescribed this prayer.

Through the ardent love of prayer, asking forgiveness of sins is good anytime. David said, "My sin is always before me; and everynight I will wash my bed I will water my couch with my tears." Psalm 1:5. The publican standing off with shame and grief with his eyes fixed to the ground, hit his breast crying, "O God, be merciful to me a sinner. St. Luke 18:3. And again in St.Luke, such was the woman, "a sinner", who standing behind Christ the Lord, washed His feet, wiped them with her hair, and kissed them 7:38.

Then there is the example of St.Peter, prince of the 12 Apostles, who "going forth wept bitterly" St.Matt. 26:75.

KFC POSTS:

This makes no sense whatsoever. This is like saying we can have it both ways. Nah uh.


Becasue God is love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Becasue He is just, He will not deprive man of the free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence for even His power does not extend to contradictory things.

We are born with free will. We cannot be free to love and serve God without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him and His Laws (sin). We can't have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness, He takes away free will. If He leaves free will He must permit evil (sin), even though He forbids it. It is man's dignity that he is the master of his own destiny instead of having to develop like a tree that obeys natural law.

From Adam on, man misused their free will and sin and brutatlity resulted as a consequence. But it was impossible to give man the gift of free will and the dignity of being master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.

You and I know that's not where the story ends. For Almighty God didn't leave us high and dry without a plan of salvation. He gave us His only begotten Son and thus the forgiveness of sins and made us heirs to the kingdom of heaven.

KFC POSTS:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't this this make Stillkoontz' point in his opening statement....Christians limit their God?

Well it certainly wasn't meant to be. I can't help it that you took it that way. I merely am saying I was on the "freewill side" of things but further inspection of scripture has led me away from that thought process. I also know from experience, that those of the freewill persuasion get very angry with those on the Election side. I've seen it in debates even. I have friends on both sides, and have even had them get angry with me over this issue. Why? I don't ever want to divide over something like this. It's not worth it and certainly not essential to our salvation.

The other thing I've notice (and I'm just being general here) is that in order for the freewill people to believe what they believe they have to ignore these other very clear God's Sovereign Election verses. Like the ones I mentioned. Usually I don't get any response, only bringing me to other scriptures which seem to read as freewill. I did the same as well. It was a hard thing for me to see in the beginning but now I look and say how could I not see?



It's very clear in scripture that we are ALL destined for hell. It's only by his grace we are not all going to hell. We have all gone astray. None of us is righteous. What do you do with the scripture in Eph 2 that says we "are all dead in our sins?" What can a dead man do? What do you do with the scripture that says he has "ordained AND predestined us?"

I know this is not popular. But your issue is not with me. It's with scripture. Did you read John 1:12-13 where is says ..."not by the will of man...but of God?" It's not about us...it's all about God.



Who is Peter writing to? That's a big clue. He's writing to believers and coupled with v8 we can see the seeming delay of Christ's return is 1. because God does not view time as we do and 2. because He wants more to repent. I believe God has a certain number of gentiles he wishes to come into the faith before he shuts that door. Once the door is shut it's shut.



Are you familiar with Charles Spurgeon? He gets into this quite a bit. He said he wished God had put yellow stripes down the backs of men so he could just evangelize to them knowing they were "predestined."

But the answer to your question is Obedience. We are called to evangelize out of obedience. God chooses men to reach men, to be his hand, feet and mouthpiece. This is where I would believe in freewill. I believe I was saved by God's grace alone and now I have the freewill to evangelize or not. If not, I'm being disobedient.



Why not not whole groups? Don't know why. How could it become discrimination? The church can in no way really tell who is ordained to eternal life or not (Acts 13:48).



Yes, it's God's desire or wish but not decree since not all will be saved.

So Dan, I enjoy your thoughts and love to discuss this but not at the expense of losing a brother...only if done in love and consideration.

how so? You can't say God chooses us and then say God doesn't choose us at the same time. Does he or doesn't he? We need to go to scriptures and see what the word of God says. Jesus said "you did not choose me I chose you." John 15

But I do agree that Christians do limit their God. They don't believe him like they should or rely on his power and strength and instead rely on their own for one thing.



Yes we are but because we are, we choose NOT to follow God. Our sin nature does not allow it. We are born dead in our sins. It takes God to breath new life into us for us to be born anew. Only then can we really obey him freely.



Then what do you do with veses like these:

"And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord and as MANY as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

Praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as SHOULD be saved. 2:47
Not ALL believed.

How about Jesus in his intercessary prayer to God his father when he said this:

"And as you have given him (Jesus) power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as MANY as you have given him." John 17:2.

This is pretty strong election here. Not ALL but as many as the father has given him. He goes on to say this:

"I have manifested your name to the men which YOU GAVE ME out of the world; yours they were and YOU GAVE them to me and they have kept my word. v6

I pray for them: I pray not for the world; but for them which you have given me; for they are yours. v9

This language is echoed by Paul exactly in Ephesians 1 when he says quite clearly:

The Father chooses 1:4
The Son redeems 1:7
The Holy Spirit Seals 1:13

I used an acronym for G-R-A-C-E....God's Riches At Christ's Expense. He decides whose coming to the wedding. We don't.

A nasty dig sent my way Mason? Why not back up these one liners with some meat?

Now think about what you just said. It's conceited and arrogant for one to believe the scriptures teach God's Sovereign Power right? That God does the choosing not man. That's an arrogant statement?

But on the other hand it's NOT conceited NOR arrogant to think that MAN chooses God? If I say I CHOSE God myself because I'm better than you who who did not...isn't that really the height of conceit and arrogance?

KFC, I take it that you do not agree with Para Teds comments which are about God's forgiveness of sin. I do. Now, how do these verses that you cite show disagreement with Para's comments? Your telling me that you believe in the "Election" doesn't really teach me anything. And where do the "free will believer" and "election believer" doctrines, theories come from? Whose teaching are they?

Here are the comments again line by line---
* God does have infinite love and forgiveness.
* Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just a chosen few.
* The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves.
* If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it.
* Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?

Not to scoot your question, "Then what do you do with veses like these":

I would repeat my # 15 and 16 reply. It's my understanding that Christ died for all; all,(not a chosen few or elect) whether Jew, pagan, Gentile or Greek, are free to pray to or petition Almighty God's and ask His forgiveness of their sins any time, any place, any where.

God does have infinite love and forgiveness. Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just a chosen few. The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves. If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it. Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?


First, I don't think there's many people that would turn down this forgiveness. I'm completely open to being forgiven if there is a god, but there's no god to forgive me. But, thats really beside the point. I don't think God would really care whether or not the forgiveness is accepted. He would forgive you for not accepting it. And won't God's unending forgiveness trump a person relatively limited unacceptance? I think so.

Next, to the first comment, im not demanding forgiveness and neither am i demanding that no god exists. I just believe the last part and will accept the second part, if it's there to be accepted. I'm not anti-God or anti-forgiveness. I just see no reason to believe in one-I actually see more reason to believe that there isn't a God. And for the forgiveness, I'm all for it if it were there.

Absolutely true. And this is biblical as well. If you forgive men their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you your offenses; but if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your sins." Rom 9:3 I think the point is for harmony and peace amongst us, we need to be reconciled with one another as best we can...and that includes the spirit of forgiveness...and this is very hard to do sometimes.

You seem to have done a good job answering your own question.

My reply to the question, "Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?" is that God shouldn't and wouldn't force forgiveness. I don't think there is any such thing as forced forgiveness. For God to forgive sins, in our petition there has to be that vital participation coming from the depth of our heart where we return to Him like the prodigal son and we recognize we are sinners before Him. Our hope is firm because in His SOn, we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. In confessing our sins, His outpouring of mercy penetrates our hearts our souls are open to His grace.

True forgiveness cannot be forced between us human relationships either. This goes to the second part of the petition of "The Lord's Prayer". Very important. "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

This is daunting and so important that our LOrd returns to and develops in His Sermon on the Mount. This "as" is not unique in Jesus' teachings. You, therefore must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Be merciful even as your Father is merciful." "A new commandment I give you that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."



The idea is that we are to imitate the divine model of forgiveness from inside and only the Spirit by whom we live can make ours the same mind that was Jesus Christ. Then the unity of forgiveness
becomes possible and we find ourselves forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave us. Forgiveness becomes a living reality.

"So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." St. Matt. 18:23-35. So, it's there in fact "in the depths of the heart" where everything is bound and loosed. It's not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense, but the heart that offers itself to the Holy SPirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

Forgiveness also bears witness that love is stronger than sin. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Heavenly Father and of men with one another.

There is no limit or measure to this essentially forgiveness whether one speaks of sins or debts. We are always debtors. "Owe no one anything except to love one another." Rom. 13:8.

Sorry this is so long, I can almost see you taking those sun glasses off and rolling your eyes!!

I agree with this totally. Hey LW...we agree!

Jesus said...."Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."



it's not what I believe that matters Lula...and I've given you scripture that you have not commented on. It's what scripture teaches. You'd have to throw out an awful lot NOT to see this. In my bible, as I go thru it and see an "election" verse, I put a big E next to it. I have E's all over the place. Even in the OT when God chose Israel. He said he didn't choose them because they were bigger or better than anyone else. He called on them to make a name for himself. He called them out of the world the same way he calls the Christian out of the world. It's no different. It's all about God, not us.

There is NO teaching in the bible on freewill FOR Salvation. There is teaching on Freewill AFTER salvation. If you love him, you'd obey him type of thing. Paul said he was ordained in his mother's womb...Gal 1. Did he believe that when he was killing the Christians or dragging them to Jerusalem to stand trial?

When our Associate Pastor came to our church he too believed in Freewill. He went thru the same verses cited above by Dan plus more. But when we started to show him these other verses, he did not scoot around them. He thoughtfully mediatated on them and was perplexed. One of the verses he came up with that Dan did not was Joshua, who said "Choose you this day whom you will serve...., as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15

Now at first that looks freewill doesn't it? Choose you this day? Makes it sound like a choice doesn't it? Until you look closer.

He was calling the people to reaffirm their committment to God and to leave the pagan gods behind. So he says either choose which pagan gods you want to worship or SERVE the living God that has just brought us out of a whole lot of messes. He never says...choose God...he says "serve" God.

So this is the whole context:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

See the difference?

Our Associate Pastor is gung-ho Election now....even worse than we are. I try really not to get into this with anyone unless they are open for it...because it's a hard teaching and not salvation worthy....and also, it's been debated for years. Good people on both sides of the fence. It's even hotly debated in my own denomination with most of them taking the freewill side. I actually think it's unbiblical myself.