Woman Dies in ER Lobby

When Quinn was born, we skipped the ER at UMC in Vegas and went straight to OB. My wife was in labor, which we found out later was keyed off by dehydration. We sat there for over three hours without her even being looked at, and when I asked for water or ice chips or something for her, they absolutely refused, saying they couldn't give her anything until she was admitted.

One of the reasons I oppose socialized medicine is because we already HAVE it in our ER's and our county hospitals. And it sucks something fierce. When a hospital can ignore a needy patient then somewhere along the line, the Hippocratic Oath has been forgotten. Fortunately for us, as for you, it turned out ok, but it easily could have been MUCH different.

This attitude seems to be the norm these days in hospitals and ER's.

They deserve what is coming to them now with the lawsuits (and possible charges?)- and so they should be made to pay. Any nurse or doctor that blatantly ignores a person writhing in agony and coughing up blood should not be in their chosen profession. The detached coldness of Mengele comes to mind.

I only read the Fox report of it, but there take was the ER could not help her.  Still, why did they not call for an ambulance to move her to a hospital that could?

As for ERs, I think we all have horror stories on them.  And that is sad.

Well... I can't say that it's that bad everywhere. We have (locally) two major hospital chains in addition to LSU hospital. My wife and I were in a severe car accident a few years ago. She was taken by ambulance to the lesser of the two. I waited in the lobby for an hour. I was driven to the other brand of hospitals and I was seen, treated and home before my wife walked out the door of the other hospital.

Since then I have been a faithful patient. I had a kidney stone last week and had to wait the longest I have ever had to wait to be brought back. (it was shift change)

If I went to LSU (charity hospital) it would have been anywhere from several hours to a day or more for something minor like a kidney stone.

I asked for water or ice chips or something for her, they absolutely refused, saying they couldn't give her anything until she was admitted.

See, they are so concerned about covering their own asses they have completely given up on caring for people.  What on earth harm could be done by giving her ice?!  Unbelievable!  I can relate though.  I broke my leg and they wouldn't give me so much as an aspirin until after the hour or two it took to "admit" me.  Then I got to sit in a hall for a couple hours in pain.

there take was the ER could not help her

So they left her to die in agony on the floor of their lobby?  Uh, I don't think so.  Common sense would dictate that if they determined they didn't have the facilities to help they would make her as comfortable as possible and rush her to a facility that can.  They probably just figured she wasn't their problem because they didn't have the right equipment for whatever tests it appeared she needed so they discharged her and washed their hands of it....dispicable!  It's just wrong.

 

 

 

Sounds like a bad case of "deliberate indifference" Link. One has to watch out for that kind of thing.

I had read that when they asked the police for assistance they were trying to arrest her for having an outstanding warrant instead of helping her. This is a typical SNAFU that had many responsible parties, the 911 operator, the ER staff, the police. It is horrible. The only thing we can hope is that they learn from this and change their protocols to prevent something like this from happening again. Of course, it's too late for the woman who died. It's a shame.

So do you think universal help care would make things better or worse?

Maybe she owed for a past medical bill?

This is awful, but on the other side, when Colleen rushed me to the Hospital {E.R.} the had me in, in seconds and upstairs in less than an hour {ICU}

Yeah but yer a Jew, they knew you'd sue if they didn't.

I think that these days just about everyone has a personal horror story, or knows someone with a horror story about our health care system. To anyone who isn't completely blinded by political rhetoric it's obvious that our health care system is in serious need of some TLC.

When Quinn was born, we skipped the ER at UMC in Vegas and went straight to OB. My wife was in labor, which we found out later was keyed off by dehydration. We sat there for over three hours without her even being looked at, and when I asked for water or ice chips or something for her, they absolutely refused, saying they couldn't give her anything until she was admitted.

See, they are so concerned about covering their own asses they have completely given up on caring for people. What on earth harm could be done by giving her ice?! Unbelievable!

I broke my leg and they wouldn't give me so much as an aspirin until after the hour or two it took to "admit" me.

They deserve what is coming to them now with the lawsuits (and possible charges?)- and so they should be made to pay.

The bold is exactly why they won't give ice, aspirin, or anything else until the patient has been admitted. Unfortunately, they are "so concerned about covering their own asses" because they have to be.

It is twofold really, if the patient's situation worsens because of something inappropriately administered by the hospital, not only will they be harder to treat and/or possibly be killed, but the hospital has made itself liable. They do nothing, because to do anything before having full knowledge of the situation places not only the patient, but the hospital at risk as well.

When a hospital can ignore a needy patient then somewhere along the line, the Hippocratic Oath has been forgotten.

Any nurse or doctor that blatantly ignores a person writhing in agony and coughing up blood should not be in their chosen profession.

I don't suppose you guys have worked in an ER? I haven't either, but I am just about to finish my coursework and become a registered and active EMT. Part of the work has included ride-alongs with EMS, and volunteer work at the UW Medical Center ER. The ER is not sitting there waiting patiently, empty beds and idle doctors just raring to go at the newest patient brought in. Rather, the beds are full, the docs are working, the nurses are working, and unfortunately, they cannot get to everyone right away. It is just not possible. No doc is sitting in the back room, sipping tea and eating crumpets. You are so quick to jump on this womans death...suppose she was treated immediately, meaning someone else was displaced, and died in her stead?

How can you complain about your wife being forced to wait while in labor, or having no aspirin while waiting with a broken leg, in the same space as vilifying the hospital for letting a woman die in the waiting room? Someone will always have to wait. If they took the woman, and your wife birthed your child in the waiting room, would you be upset? If the infant died from complications stemming from the birth, would you sue the hospital, because her spot was taken by a woman needing emergency surgery? If your broken leg had resulted in deep tissue bleeding, leading to a heart attack because you weren't treated fast enough, and encouraged by the aspirin you mention not receiving, would you still complain about the dead woman?

Doctors aren't supermen, hospitals aren't perfect, nurses are humans like everyone else. People cannot be treated instantly. This "doctors are out to get us, doctors don't care, boo on them they have forgotten the Hippo" rhetoric is disgusting.

Please note I am not trying to target anyone specifically, regardless of who I quoted. I value ALL opinions, even if I state disagreement.

As an individual with a moderate amount of training in first aid, emergency response, etc, ad nauseum, I'm aware of triage, and what it consists of. Additionally, I've got several good friends that are nurses in local ER. One of them is even the charge nurse for her shift. Seeing something like this happen (and I was actually watching the evening news when it aired) just scares me. If a person is bleeding out in the lobby, SOMEONE is responding to it. Even if it's just the triage nurse making sure that the bleeding isn't continuing (someone presents w/ a bloody bandage) or an EMT, nurse or doctor is actively attempted to stem the bleeding (if someone wanders in actively bleeding). If the ER is overworked to the point that the staff cannot see to it, then any one of the EMT's that cycle through there could've done SOMETHING.

So, yes, the hospital is liable for gross negligence. I can understand the CYA attitude that a lot of hospitals are taking up. In today's litigious society, it's a survival trait. That doesn't excuse the complete disregard for human life that was displayed in this ER. Illegal or not, outstanding warrant or not, other factors or not, there is no excuse for even THINKING about ignoring someone who's bleeding out in your ER waiting room.

During the segment I watched on TV, they replayed parts of the 911 call where the 911 operator repeatedly referred the caller to the hospital staff. The first time the operator said this, great! Wonderful! It was the appropriate response. After the initial caller (and a subsequent caller) informed the operator that the hospital staff was nonresponsive, I wonder what the 911 operator should've done in that situation. Was there someone she (and he on the second call) could've contacted to facilitate the process? Even if it was contacting one of the EMT services that routinely brought patients into that same ER and got THEM to look into it.

I'm sure that many changes (and not all for the better) will come out of this. But the one thing that we need to remember - a woman lost her life due to a complete disregard by the very people that should've made an ATTEMPT to save it. Even if there was no hope of saving her, no attempt at all was made. THAT is something that I find morally, ethically and criminally inexcusable.

Well, since what brought on my wife's premature labor was dehydration, they potentially faced a MUCH larger suit had my wife or son died because of their failure to treat them. Not only did they NOT cover their asses, they endangered TWO lives by their negligence.

Because it wasn't just us. And it was THREE HOURS.

Do you know anything about labor, curious? Are you aware that a woman carrying her fifth child can go through labor in an insanely short period of time? Much less than three hours? Considering we had to drive into town an HOUR and that our midwife had called ahead, the treatment was inexcusable, plain and simple. And has we been the only ones, we might have seen the oversight as less of a problem.

Contrary to popular belief, giving a woman ice chips is not likely to cause complications in pregnancy.

What we found when my wife WAS finally admitted was a staff that was consistently rude and uncaring. I realize that doctors and nurses are stressed, but if they can't maintain a decent bedside manner, maybe they chose the wrong field.

Actually, with our third, my ex was in labor for only 35 minutes.

Exactly!



I've seen plenty of docs and nurses standing around chit chatting while people were waiting in agony. I've even been privy to a doc spending 20mins on the phone discussing his boat insurance while people were waiting.

I'm quite aware that someone has to wait. There is no excuse for someone writhing in pain on the floor vomitting blood to not get immediate attention...period.

Rather, the beds are full, the docs are working, the nurses are working, and unfortunately, they cannot get to everyone right away. It is just not possible. No doc is sitting in the back room, sipping tea and eating crumpets. You are so quick to jump on this womans death...suppose she was treated immediately, meaning someone else was displaced, and died in her stead?

Sounds like hospital mismanagement.  How come they don't have enough staff? 

I have been to good hospitals, and I have been to horrible hospitals.  We have 2 major hospitals by me (St. Joe and UofM).  I have been to emergency at both of them.  I got better care at St. Joe versus UofM.  St. Joe was due to debilitating muscle spasms, UofM was for a car accident.  what was the difference?  Management. 

St. Joe had *many* people in Triage.  They also had registered nurses that talked to me while I was in a wheelchair (while filling out admission paperwork) to start the process of getting me help.  When the Dr. walked down to talk to me, he was talking to the nurse the whole time.  By the time he got to me, he pretty much new what was wrong.  Confirmed it when he met with me and gave the nurse instructions- Done.

UofM (car accident) was complete chaos.  I was seen right away because I came in from an ambulance.  There were Drs and nurses everywhere, then they wheeled me into a hall and I sat there for over an hour on a back board with a neck brace on.  No meds, no nothing.  By the time a saw somebody, I wasn't sure if the pain was from the accident or from being on the freaking backboard for so long.  If i would have had serious injuries, i would have been in a bad way.  All the time, I heard Drs and nurses (could have been "in training" Drs, though, since it is a teaching hospital) joking and laughing and chatting the whole time.

My lesson learned was to go to St. Joe.  I doubt that they have more staff, it's just that their staff is better organized and efficient.

There is no excuse for what happened to that lady.  No matter what, a nurse could have seen her, or they could have moved a not so urgent case into the main hospital for observation.

Ok, maybe I missed something but I know I heard on FOX News that the woman was an addict who had been discharged from that hospital earlier that day because she was trying to get free drugs.

If that was the case then yes, it was still the hospitals fault but I can understand how it happened. The woman was going through withdrawal and that alone will kill you if your not watched medically.

Total lack of fear. People in these places feel that they are untouchable, no matter how heinous their actions. If after something like this they found the person or persons responsible hanging flayed in the victim's family's backyard, well, they might think twice. I find it difficult to believe as a husband and father that someone could just let this go with a monetary settlement.

If that was the case then yes, it was still the hospitals fault but I can understand how it happened.

Seriously, you can still understand why someone vomitting blood would be ignored?  If so, I hope you don't work in the medical field.

Baker, I certainly do get the feeling when dealing with most urgent or emergency care that I have had the misfortune to require that they have the attitude that you just take whatever lousy care they will give you and accept it without question.  No other business could survive dealing with people the way the medical profession does.

This is my feeling as well. I have a permanently damaged knee that will probably eventually need to be replaced because about 15 years ago when it started to go really bad, I hobbled into the ER on two separate occasions, barely able to walk. Because I could bear weight on my legs, all they did was wrap it in an ace bandage and write me a prescription for pain killers. No X-Rays, no serious examination, just send me on with what could have been torn tendons, cartilage, anything.

And it HAS affected my weight. I can only seriously walk on GOOD days. While those good days are fortunately around 70-80% of the time, I also have to count on them not conflicting with days I actually have TIME to walk. I could walk more, sure, but I'm also limited on those days. Even more so by the fact that the cool days where it's usually more comfortable, are also more prone to be the worse ones.

No amount of management, mis- or otherwise, can predict emergency room volume and acuity at every point in time. If we tried to staff our ER's with enough personnel to never be short-staffed, 1) we couldn't begin to find enough qualified people and 2) every hospital would go bankrupt in a matter of months. You have to remember, it's not just the ER - it's the lab, the x-ray department, the pharmacy, all the infrastructure needed to support the ER as well. Experience has shown me that the more emergency services expand, in terms of number of beds and staff, the even greater the volume grows, quickly overwhelming the brief leg up on staffing. People are human and when the ER gets bigger/faster, guess what - it gets used more. It's always a tail-chasing exercise. There will never be a situation where every person is seen & treated immediately upon presentation - best we can hope for is to get close.

None of the above absolves the hospital in question in this post - it's hard to conceive of a situation where someone bleeding in the waiting room doesn't get higher priority, but without knowing the acuity of those patients already in the door and what was actually going on in totality, it is impossible to issue a blanket condemnation. A full evaluation of the totality of those circumstances is warranted, for sure. Our penchant to rush to judgement these days (Duke) has this hospital tried, convicted & hung already, but that is based on selective, bare facts. Just isn't that straightforward.

Having been an ER/critical care doc at one time, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of emergency physicians, ER nurses and staff are dedicated folks doing their best with the resources at their disposal, given the medicolegal climate they practice in. They don't like making people wait any more than you like waiting. They do care. I used to hate how long it took to get lab reports & x-rays back on less-than-critical patients but you made the best of it and tried your best to be sure the decisions you were making were in the best interest of the patient, that you didn't rush to judgment - after all, virtually all the people you are asked to evaluate are people you've never met before & have limited information about. To condemn an entire profession or industry based on anecdotal experience & complaints (who doesn't love to complain about their ER visit?) is to expose a degree of ignorance (in the academic sense) of the nature of providing medical care these days.

They don't like making people wait any more than you like waiting. They do care.

You know, all it takes for me to believe that is an "I'm sorry for the wait".  But do you know how seldom I get that?  I would love to believe what you're saying about the "overwhelming majority" but it would seem if that were the case, the overwhelming majority of patients would feel like they cared.

I have an immense amount of respect and appreciation for people who work in the medical field.  I just hope that they don't forget that they are working with people.  They need to remember common courtesy that isn't so common anymore like simple apologies that go a long way.

I will certainly be interested in seeing what all of the facts are surrounding this case.

Right. It's called "bedside manner".

Daiwa, you're right on some of your points, but there are also some very legitimate issues that are raised. If we fail to look into those issues because we believe the majority are good, then we weaken the whole industry.

As I am sure you well know, it turns out this woman died of a perforated bowel. Something that could have been fixed had her complaints been taken seriously and investigated. Something that certainly would have prompted the numerous ER visits she logged, visits that SHOULD have been taken more seriously, especially when she was vomitting blood.

As for the two cases I mentioned, they were inexcusable as well. I realize the default rate on indigent care is high, but somewhere between slapping an ace bandage and sending someone home and actually evaluating the knee, there lies a balance. A balance that should have been sought. And refusing to give a woman in labor ice chips, ESPECIALLY when it turns out she was dehydrated (3 hours in labor with no water after she was ALREADY dehydrated? Insane, man!) was just wrong.

Like Jill, I would like to meet these dedicated professionals. Perhaps if they start driving the snake oil salespeople out of the industry, they will find more respect coming from the poorer quarters.