yes you are....yes you are...yes you are....(sticks tongue out).



as Ronald Reagan would say:

"There you go again!"

I'll check the link out tomorrow. I didn't put the stuff you quoted above because I didn't hear that. I heard what was on the radio and like I said, took notes. I believe it could have been an abbreviated (for time) sermon. Since I heard it twice, I'm absolutely sure the parts you quoted I didn't hear. It has nothing to do with me skipping anything. If you're questioning me you can get what I heard on www.family.org and hear exactly what I did hear.



I would agree with McArthur. Since I believe all things happen for a reason and nothing is outside his control. God allows things to happen for a purpose and plan that only he knows. Bad things happening in life whether it be individually or corporately many times draws us closer to God. Sure, some get mad and rail against him but some don't. It's a choice. During 9/11 we saw a nation that did draw closer to God. It didn't last long I'm afraid but many did come to the saving knowledge of God thru it.

things happen for many reasons. Sometimes we don't know why. Sometimes we can see it, sometimes not. Sometimes things happen because of our own screwups and we must pay the consequences. Sometimes it's Satan doing his thing and sometimes it's God himself. It's not always easy to determine. I look at the Twin Towers as Satan doing his thing and God allowing it to happen. Evil unleashed.

In my own life when something happens, I examine my life and most of the time I can determine why a particular thing has taken place. When we suffer are we suffering because we are suffering for God (as Christ, the Prophets and Apostles did) or are we suffering because of our own stupidity?

While we're at it Baker. I don't press you like you do me most of the time letting things go, but you many times skip over things yourself and don't answer my questions either. Here's one you skipped....

I ignored it because you took my point out of context. What I said was:



And that's the truth. Go back and look at what was said about God abandoning the world in the late Roman empire, the dark ages during the plague, the renaissance, the reformation, the age of enlightenment, the civil war, WW2, the Cold War, blah, blah blah...

There have ALWAYS been people pounding their fists and saying God has abandoned us, and that's why the current (war/plague/famine/drought/light breeze) is all the fault of the (homosexuals/sinners/intellectuals/scientists/communists/pornographers/yadda yadda.). You're being obtuse if you pose that what this sermon is saying is anything new.

P.S. Augustus Ceasar made homosexuality and adultery illegal and blamed Rome's problems on it before THERE WAS A CHRISTIANITY. No, not a new thing in the least. Their answer? They castrated their slaves so the "men" they were having sex with wouldn't really be "men".

No, if you take the time to study a bit you'll find that we have not plumbed the depths of depravity possible. The stuff Romans painted on their walls was often far more tasteless than anything you find in Playboy. So, heh, you can't really claim there has never been a more "gay" nation, can you?

Well the sermon I HEARD was on James Dobson's radio program yesterday and it was sermonized on the National Day of Prayer. So that was before this linked sermon. So maybe that's the difference? Besides, I'm sure Dobson didn't play the whole thing like I already said because of time issues. It really doesn't matter really. Baker just wants to turn it into another issue by pulling up another part of the sermon I just didn't get to hear.



again, this is just nasty. I DID NOT OMIT ANYTHING.

Why do you play dumb with me Baker? How many times do I have to say the same thing?Of course you didn't answer this either.





What don't you understand about this principle? I think I made it pretty clear. This is your bias showing Baker. It's been presented pretty simply. You'd be more honest if you'd just say you don't buy it.

Yes, I did, back in reply 21. I pointed out that you have a double standard, saying that God can turn his back on a nation, and yet not turn His back on every daughter that really repents. If God is only turning His back on the unrepentant sinners, then why is this "nation" stuff even at issue.

Because, as you admit above, you believe that God withholds his aid and the repentant daughters get it, too. But not the REALLY repentant ones, I guess...

ok, here's what you just quoted from Proverbs 1

Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices."


Now, I find it interesting what you highlighted. Pretty interesting and speaks LOUDLY of your bias. Now....I'll rewrite it and highlight it again by underlining it KFC style.

Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices."

Looks alot different when you highlight different words now doesn't it?
Sounds an awful lot like Romans 1 doesn't it? Whose side are you on Baker? Like I keep saying your bias is showing. I'm giving you the WHOLE counsel of God and you're picking and choosing what you want. I'll say it one more time....God knows and judges the heart. He knows if they are sincerely repenting or just sorry for their calamity. He knows his sheep and his sheep respond.

I'll give you another clue on the Proverbs 1 thing and you can do the research ok? Think Saul. He's your example.

Um, no, it doesn't look different at all. God is still there mocking our calamity and laughing at our dread. Basically behaving as unChristian as possible. Sure, there's a pouty excuse for it, but we're told that pouty excuses don't excuse turning our back on those we can help.

You aren't giving me the counsel of God, you're giving me antique mythologies, pseudo-religious nonsense that people used to blame each other for tragedy, or to excuse their genocide. You're just making a case for not minding your own business.

Why? Because when you start this "nation" junk, that starts giving you the right to judge. After all, you've suddenly got to get this nation turned around, and you can't do that without addressing all those splinters in other people's eyes. Suddenly we've moved from a personal relationship with God to some political relationship with God, and you start "kicking for Christ".

Suddenly, you are put at risk by other people's sins, so you have the right to mind something that would otherwise be none of your business. Convenient, huh?



Then the "Nation" thing is meaningless. In the end its just the unrepentant sinners, as always, that God's turned His back on. He will hear his "sheep" call during all those volcanoes and hurricanes, and all the prodigal sons, too. So we're right back to where we started before all the "nation" junk was brought up.

Oddly enough, you don't exactly believe that, either, as witnessed by your post #26:



I wonder, was God laughing at our calamity that day? Was He laughing and mocking, out in the street with the Palestinians? Can you see a perfect God mocking anyone suffering?

I'll give you a clue. If God is perfect, and I believe He is, then he'll be better than we are. He'll be just as good as he demands that we be. He won't be the polar opposite of the example Christ gave us. He won't turn His back on anyone.

You go on and spend your time smugly blaming other people for natural disasters and the like. Whatever makes you feel better, maybe picket a funeral or two. In the end, you have to have something to point to in order to validate all the nosing around in other people's lives and bedrooms. Otherwise, it will just seem like the empty judgemental silliness it is.

I guess if you want to blame such stuff for volcanoes, knock yourself out.

lol, when Ward Churchill calls the people in the World Trade Center "little eichmanns" and blames their economic activities for the 9/11 attack, people go ballistic. When an evangelical preacher blames the same thing on homosexual sympathizers and our national values, a lot of those same people nod approvingly. It boggles the mind.

You know, terrorists say the same thing. They say that because of our wickedness God will throw us down and deliver us into the hands of our enemies. It amazes me that a preacher can stand behind a pulpit, basically saying the same thing as a terrorist, and not be the focus of at least as much ire as Ward Churchill.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:


BAKERSTREET POSTS:


Bakerstreet, your response tells me that a restating of my initial premise of what Romans 13 means is in order.

There is a hierarchy of authority. God’s authority and His commands are supreme, numero uno, absolute and above all else. It is from God and His Supreme Absolute Authority that we humankind, His wonderful creation, derive our 3 spheres of authority, which I briefly outlined in an above post. KFC’s blog deals, in part, with the third sphere of authority ----governmental (civil) authority of nations and God’s supreme right and authority over them.

I’m using Romans 13:1-4 to make my point. Romans 13:1 starts out by saying, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authority. For there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been established by God.” “every soul” means every living being...all mankind is subject to lawful civil authority. “Subject to lawful civil authority” is that which is obedient to, subject to and based on, in harmony with and conformed to God’s authority. Now, the power of this institution, as intended by God, is formidable.

Civil authority, like family authority and religious authority is delegated by God Himself for a purpose, His purpose. Such authority is not absolute since it is delegated to human individuals who are capable of misusing it. Therefore each user is accountable to God for his administration of such delegated authority as he holds, and he is held to a higher standard than the person who holds none.

At the same time when one is entrusted with that authority exercise it in the manner God intended, the authority has the full weight and power of God behind it. To oppose it is to oppose God. St.Paul states this clearly in v. 2. “Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes that what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves.” Based on this, I wrote, "There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by Him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine order." AND I DON’T THINK I HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS FOR DOING SO.

In the event I haven’t convinced you YET, I’ll continue.......

From Romans 13:2, I conclude that this is obviously a divine truth: God formed civil government by the delegation of a portion of his own authority. Therefore the authority contained in civil government is God’s authority. Because it’s God’s authority it is both instituted by God and accountable to Him to accomplish His intended purposes.

Romans v. 3 says, “ For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil...” God placed within the institution of civil government this cardinal principle which is its foundational and operational directive: government is to be a terror to evil; it is not to be a terror to good. Since the authority to accomplish this divine task is from God, He is also the standard for determining what is good and what is evil. God alone defines good and evil.

This btw, has nothing to do with reinstituting Mosaic Law for Scripture makes it abundantly clear that God has no desire for that. He sent His own Son to die on a Cross to get us out from under the Mosaic Law, once and for all, that we might obtain salvation through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. Romans 13:3 clearly states the operational standards for civil government under the New Covenant which is to praise good and punish evil. Much of the morality expressed in the Mosaic Law, however, is transferable to civil law.

In a nutshell, lawful civil authority is that which is ordained by God. Its most basic operational mandate is to be a terror to evil works and a source of praise for what is good.

Using Romans 13: 1-4, Hussein, Soviet Russia and Hitler are 3 examples of unlawful civil authority because their actions and policies are “a terror to good”. Therefore, we must always and everywhere resist and oppose those as best we can. An example of this would be in discerning the actions of those in governmental authority or of those who would like to be in authority: Take Rudy Guilani. If elected, he has said he would uphold the unlawful provisions of Roe v. Wade. In other words, I as a Christian in good conscience and in conformity with the teachings of Christ, could/would/should not vote for him for he in supporting Roe would be a “terror to good”.

To expand upon this....and try to circle round back to the main topic of KFC’s blog which is God’s wrath upon people and nations that do not live lives or govern according to His Will and Law.

I would say that our unalienable right to life, liberty, private property, freedom of conscience and of the practice of religion founded by Jesus Christ are given to each human being by the Creator. No human authority has the authority from God to take these rights away. The Nation or State, too, may not even pretend to have such authority to deny us these fundamental rights, as all authority comes from Almighty God.

These rights come from God because God made us to live according to His Divine Will and to accomplish our individual vocations according to His Will to the best our ability. God hasn’t left us high and dry in order to accomplish this. To fulfill our duty to God and our fellow man (in charity), since we are free and rational beings, He has given us the means and the necessary rights and authority in order to achieve His Will for us.

Thus, these rights are given to us directly by God but immediately through the State. The States’, the Governments’, all the public authorities’, including school boards’, purpose is to promote harmoniously the God-given rights of its citizens so that the citizens, in exercising their rights unhampered, may the more easily save their souls and glorify God. The State may not ever on any pretext, even a majority vote, take away our God-given rights.

The blatant, grave injustice of abortion committed against the most innocent and defenseless of our fellow brothers and sisters still in the womb also indicates something else. It shows that many of our leaders and authorities here in the US and countries all over the world, as well as those of organizations such as the EU and the UN, are in effect and in practice declaring themselves independent of Jesus Christ and His reign over them. Scripture tells us that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. Apoc. 19:16.

As our King, He demands that our legislatures, laws, courts, schools, and even our hospitals, reflect Him and His Law and that they do not contradict it. For those who do, verses 2-4 tell of the consequence.

“Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then, do what is good and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant to you for the good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid: for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the evildoer.”

So you'd agree that it would have been right to oppose the Catholic Church and the secular authority when they were burning Jews at the stake and selling indulgences, etc.? If so, the Reformation was probably a good thing, wasn't it? After all, it was in direct response to the authorities on Earth departing from God's commands.

Has God abandoned a nation that was built by way of the conquest, murder, and utter destruction of multiple nations of people? I should hope so.

Um, no, it doesn't look different at all. God is still there mocking our calamity and laughing at our dread. Basically behaving as unChristian as possible. Sure, there's a pouty excuse for it, but we're told that pouty excuses don't excuse turning our back on those we can help.

Well you're deliberating picking out the "poor people" and pointing out that God is the bad mean ol' ogre according to the scripture. Who is he mocking Baker? Just who is it? It's not "us" as in me. I don't claim that. We can see clearly they don't really want help. They want relief from their logical consequences but they don't want God. I see this all the day long.

You started the passage in Proverbs with v24 (Because I have called and you refused). Well who's he talking about? Just prior to what you quoted you can see Wisdom personified as a woman inviting ALL to come to her and learn but the majority refuse to heed her appeal. She cries in the streets for ALL to hear.

Then the passage turns to the "scorners." Those are the "us" that you're referring to. The scorners are thos who are proud, arrogant and deliberate troublemakers.

"Proud and haughty scorner is his name who deals in proud wrath. 21:24

"Cast out the scorner and contention shall go out; yes, strife and reproach shall cease." 22:10

These "despised" God and he leaves them "alone" and does not help them.

I'll give you a clue. If God is perfect, and I believe He is, then he'll be better than we are. He'll be just as good as he demands that we be. He won't be the polar opposite of the example Christ gave us. He won't turn His back on anyone.

Well then we agree. God is perfect. But to be perfect he's also going to institute justice. Christ turned his back on the nation Israel for their unbelief. What makes you so sure he's not going to turn his back on those who are not his "covenant" people?

God's justice announced in his law demanded perfect righteousness available only by faith in the God who had promised to send the seed of promise. Jesus, that promised seed, himself said that unless one was more righteous than the Pharisees they could not enter heaven. So it sounds to me, by the looks of it, that God is going to turn his back on many people. The only way to obtain this righteousness is thru the one who is righteous, and if they deny and scorn him away, there is no more sacrifice for sin. That's it.

So you would consider it "Godly" to go downtown and mock, say, unrepentant drunks sleeping in the park? Maybe you could go to an AIDS clinic and laugh derisively at the unrepentant dying.

Matthew 5

1. And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21. Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24. Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The important part for this discussion is the last few lines. If God is as you describe Him, then the admonition to be perfect as God is perfect would mean we would behave in a very different way than Jesus directs us to. I see nothing there that calls for us to only show mercy to the repentant. If the behavior Jesus describes is perfection, then how can your view of God be perfect?

It wouldn't kill those who love the Old Testment, angry God to review 6 and 7, too. As it says, if we are kind enough to care for out children, can we expect any less from a perfect God? Lest we forget, we are Christians, not Pharisees...

when exactly did god proclaim his citizenship or formally embrace the united states? would that be before or after witches were burned in salem? when washington and his colleagues distributed blankets infested with smallpox to the indigenous tribes? was he an investor in the slave economy? did he smile down upon the supreme court rendering the dred scott decision (that was a real imposition btw lulapilgrim; roe vs wade doesn't force anyone to do anything).

please point me to the scriptural basis for claiming mankind has an inalienable right to private property or to any constitutional recognition of an inalienable right to practice only the religion founded by jesus christ (which religion would that be? will kfc agree with lulapilgrim it's the rcc?? if not...)

Lulapilgrim posts:


Yes, I oppose all evil doers in the Church...in the days of old and in the present day. The Church authority just as civil authority is delegated by God for His purpose. And we see, just as those individuals with civil authority, those in the Church with authority are capable of misusing their God-given authority. Choices made in opposition to God’s moral will are made in defiance to God’s authority. To their sorrow and anger, many people will some day find out that God is God, that He is existence itself, that He is Holy and He is Just. It's the Just God that many want to forget. Nonetheless, woe to them who misuse their authority. For each of them upon their death is accountable to God and he is held to a higher standard, i.e. .”..to whom much is given, much is required”.

Bakerstreet posts:


“A good thing”? No, the Protestant Revolution convulsed the world and divided Christendom was a sad, sad thing. This is how I see it. When the Revolution broke out, the need for reform had long been felt. All Catholics who know Church history admit the wrong-doing of some in authority and certain abuses then existed....as you rightly say by ”these authorities on Earth departing from God's commands”. Catholics also believe that a thorough ecclesiastical housecleaning could have been effected without an all out rupture which caused religious social and political upheaval, blood to flow, and created a chasm in Christ's Church which time has not and may never close.

The faults in the Church at the time were those of individual conduct, rather than of doctrine and it was certainly the duty of the would-be Reformers to remain in the Church and reform her wayward members. But they didn’t do this. Their fault consisted in passing from an attack on the abuses and misdeeds of the wayward members to an all out assault upon the office of the Papacy and against the authentic Apostolic faith. They didn’t ‘reform’ anything, instead they revolted, rejected and denied just about all that is Catholic.

In the end, reform came, but it was from within the Catholic Church herself. Discipline was restored in the older religious orders and new ones were formed. The Council of Trent re-stated Catholic doctrine on points controverted by the Protestants and abuses connected with the preaching of Indulgences were stopped.

Baker, do you know how many people I've talked to over the years that LOVE the Sermon on the Mount (Chap 5-7) yet don't give a rip about anything else in scripture? Why do you suppose? Remember I've said Matthew 7:1 is the most quoted scripture from non believers? Do you think it has to do with religion just in general?

And the answer to your question? No. I don't see God in a mocking way. The only place I think I really see it is in the Proverb you brought forth although it's said elswhere that he won't listen to them because he knows what's in them. But there it's talking about the prideful arrogant sinners, not the town drunks. It's all about context. Most of what I believe of God's attitude on the "unjust" is this because it's repeated so much:

"Have I any pleasure in the wicked should die? says the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will you die O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies says the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves and live. " Ezek 18:23, 31-32.

Repentance brings escape from judgment because God does not delight in the death of the wicked. Yet, they say to God that he's out of balance (v25) or unjust. Actually it's the people who were are out of balance, not God.

I believe God is more than longsuffering and patient with us. There's no way any of us on earth can compare to what he's had to put up with. We should all be on our knees grateful he hasn't wiped all mankind off the face of the earth for how we've treated him all this time.

Back to Matt 5. It's a great section of scripture you brought up. I especially am challanged by v38-42 with the principle being that we all be willing to suffer loss for another. Can you imagine this world if we all had this attitude? I try my best but fall short too many times, but we should all strive to have this attitude and the world would be a much better place.

Notice what he said in 11-12? What did the prophets say that got them in so much hot water with the people?

And of course in v44 he was a great example of practicing what he preached wasn't he?

Maybe you could go to an AIDS clinic and laugh derisively at the unrepentant dying.

now this is just nasty. Why would you say this to me after I told you our responsibility as Christians is to pray and love those that are engaging in behaviors (sexual immorality) that are not pleasing to God. Did I say anything that would warrent this comment? For crying out loud....I wasn't even the one to bring up the Proverbs you were.

I see nothing there that calls for us to only show mercy to the repentant.

I agree. We should be merciful to all people. But that's not what this blog is about. It's about God's sovereignty not ours.

As far as children goes....not all that walk on this earth are God's children. They are all his creation, yes, but not his children. So says Jesus himself:

I know that you are Abraham's seed (Jews) but you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father and you do that which you have seen with your father. ........You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father even God. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself but he sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Even, because you cannot hear my word. You are of your Father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth....... John 8:40:44

These are the ones that God will not hear in their time of trouble.....unless they turn and repent. Then he hears them. Remember God takes no delight in the demise of the sinners.

if this is true, god musta been closely embracing afghanistan under the taliban.

when exactly did god proclaim his citizenship or formally embrace the united states?

He didn't. Actually he said quite clearly...."My Kingdom is no part of this world."

will kfc agree with lulapilgrim it's the rcc?? if not...)

First off I want to come to Lula's defense here and say that I believe her when she says, she is against any in the past, present and future who have committed atrocities against humankind or that are behaving in an unChristian manner not representing her church as they should. I do think she's a bit too lenient on the past offenses but her strength is on the here and now dealing with those that she sees abusing or taking advantage of their positions in the RCC. She doesn't stick up for them.

Having said that and believing in many things that Lula stands for, we part company when it comes to the authority of the RCC. We see history a bit differently. I see Luther as a hero, one sent and protected from God. She sees him as a devil and traitor to his own church. We disagree and we're ok with that. Now, if she'd just stop trying to convert me back to the RCC......we'd get along even more smashingly than we do now......

I don't believe Christ set any Kingdom or denomination on this earth. I beieve he started the church (people) and the Universal Catholic Church is one made up of all believers regardless of religious affiliation as long as they have the essentials and have made HIM not only Savior but also Lord of their lives. In other words, they are Christ Followers not men followers.

KINGBEE POSTS:

This is Catholic principle on the right to private property.

The right to private property is the right which every human being has from his very nature. The he may own, use, and dispose of material and even intellectual things for his own benefit, without interference.

An example, is John Smith owns something when it truly belongs to him and to no other person in such a way that he may sell it,consume it, alter it, or exchange it. Others have a duty to respect John's rightful ownership of his property and they may not interfere with his lawful use or disposal of it.

This right comes from the Natural Law and it is approved by the positive law of Almighty God. By this man, by reason of the fact htat he is endowed with intellect and free will needs to own in order to be able to live acording to his nature and thus attain the object for which God created him. When a man works, he exchanges his powers, capacity, energies and labor--things which are part and parcel of himself--for a wage. The wage is his so long as he violates no law, he can do what he likes with it.

Whatever he lawfully obtains with his wage is his; it belongs to him. Therefore if he has a right to exchange his labor for a wage and he certainly has the right to purchase and own private property, even that type of property which is productive of other goods that can be sold (contrary to what socialists and communists advocate).

I won't go into it here, but there are social principles on private property and how that is necessary for the family and also for initiative and progress.

Some things obviously cannot be owned, e.g.daylight, and must be used according to its purpose and nature. Therefore the right to private ownership is not absolute and unlimited right.
The State has the right and the duty to limit in some respects and in some grave reasons private ownership for the common good of all. But State control may never rightly reach such proportions as to the amount to a practical denial of the right to private ownership. Both real socialism and communism deny that men have a right to private ownership of productive goods. WIth this position, they deny the law of Nature and untold misery is the result.

Kingbee, look in the Book of Deuteronomy 19:14, Moses clearly stated the law of private ownership. "Thou shalt not take or remove thy neighbor's landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession, which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land taht thou shalt receive to possess." In Exodus 20:17, we find several of God's commands in this regard. "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his." Jesus Christ repeated and reinforced these commandments of the Old Law. Check out St.Matt. 19:18-19; St. Mark 10:19 and Romans 13:9.

KFC Posts:

Why thank you KFC, I love you too, eh?

KFC POSTS:

This is so true. God wants all to be saved...but it's got to be on His terms. He's the Creator we are the created. He rules...in mercy, love and justice. At the same time, any one who humbly acknowledges their sin and truly repents, He will hear, He will forgive..their sin will be removed as far as the east is from the west.....when we do this we are becoming perfect as He is perfect.

I know you acknowledged it, but lemme post it one more time:

Matthew 5:



Look at that again. It says NOTHING of limiting your kindness and charity and care to people who are repentant. Jesus says openly that we mustn't make those distinctions, THAT WE MAY BE THE CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. Does that sound like someone that would mock people in their misery?

"For if you love them which love you, what reward have you, do not even the publicans the same?"

Jesus is telling us to be perfect AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN is perfect. Until I am convinced otherwise, I am going to assume Jesus is talking about God. That isn't the description of a God that turns his back on people in their time of tragedy because He's been slighted, nor is it the character of a being that would order the slaughter of innocent children because their parents worship other Gods.

You can flail around all you want, and claim perfect continuity between the Old and New Testament, but that section there damns any such argument. The OT perception of God was a creator that spared those that towed the line and discounted the lives and suffering of those who didn't. The Old Testament God is not this God. Period.

You are being brainwashed by political propaganda, thousands of years old, that was intended to excuse the invasion of a place and the liquidation of cultures. To me, that is bearing false witness against God Himself.

I heard this message from John Macarthur it and it was extremely legalistic and moralistic. What is moralism? Moralism is legalism taken outside of the Church (our leading export, it seems). It judges others solely based on specific behaviors (particularly sexual mores), much like the Pharisees judged others. It typically condemns rather than reaches out. It expects unbelievers to act as righteous as believers (or even more so). In addition to the tendency of feeding self-righteousness, one of the key dangers of moralism is that it can cause us to miss the bigger picture.
As Christians, by not deeply believing the Gospel and trying to earn God’s acceptance, individually or as a nation, in our daily lives is the main cause of fear and pride in our hearts (moralism and legalism)because we act on the idea of “I obey therefore I am accepted” (religion) rather than “I am accepted so I obey” (Gospel).
Did anyone feel set free by this message? Did it liberate you like the Gospel does or did it make you feel like you needed to do some sin management and work really hard to please God or He would punish us? Freedom is the Gospel (Jesus) the other one is religion (Pharisees).
Here is something from Desiring God and John Piper on the Gospel vs. Moralism from the 2006 Desiring God Conference
Tim Keller on the Gospel:
The gospel is: you are more sinful and flawed than you ever dared believe yet you can be more accepted and loved than you ever dared hope at the same time because Jesus Christ lived and died in your place. . . .
“True faith saith not: ‘What have I done? . . . What do I deserve?’ But it saith: ‘what hath Christ done? What doth he deserve?’ . . . Therefore he that apprehendeth Christ by faith . . . may be bold to glory that he is righteous. How? Even by that precious jewel, Christ Jesus, which he possesseth by faith.” (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians)
Irreligious people seek to be their own saviors and lords through irreligion, “worldly” pride. (“No one tells me how to live or what to do, so I determine what is right and wrong for me!”) But moral and religious people seek to be their own saviors and lords through religion, “religious” pride. . . . Both irreligion and religion are forms of self salvation.
To “get the gospel” is to turn from self-justification and rely on Jesus’ record for a relationship with God. The irreligious don’t repent at all, and the religious only repent of sins. But Christians also repent of their righteousness. That is the distinction between the three groups—Christians, moralists (religious), and pragmatists (irreligious).
“Lay your deadly doing down, down at Jesus’ feet.
Stand in Him, in Him alone—gloriously complete.” (Unknown)
(Partnership, June 1996: “Redeemer: The Centrality of the Gospel”)

Really enjoyed that reply. Repenting of one's righteousness... what a cool way of saying it.

For some really good sermons check out the guy that wrote that: Dr. Timothy Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in NYC. This is no ordinary church and no ordinary preacher...sorry Dr. Macarthur.

The sermon following 9-11 is exellent. Not the normal doom and gloom and blaming someone's sin on the attack. Very Gospel oriented.

http://sermons.redeemer.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=11&CFID=944663&CFTOKEN=70148901

BAKERSTREET POSTS:


I hope you can see after reading my explanation in reply # 34, that, according to Romans 13, I think we should oppose, as best we can, all forms of governmental authority if their actions and policies are “a terror to good”.

I don't see this as a self defeating conflict....

You brought up that the nation is Caesar's junk this referring ‘Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.' Here, our Lord is speaking to us about becoming ensnared in competing loyalties and forget that kingship belongs to God omnipotent. Men rule at God's pleasure. "you would have no power...unless it had been given you from above." St.Jn 19:11. The only way to look at this is that Jesus Christ is King and men are blessed to share in His authority. Men defeat themselves when they don't follow this formula...and that of the Sermon on the Mount as well!

See I don't think the legalizaton of abortion and acceptance of homosexuality are strictly political issues and therefore a matter for Caesar alone. Whether opposing the culture of death or any tyranny of the political order, I give my first allegiance to God. Secular humanists and the libertines hate this saying religious types like me and KFC should keep out of the public square crying Church and State. We are saying that when Ceaser's laws are an abomination before Almighty God, then it is Caesar who must change....(KFC is saying if we don't change, then God's wrath, that is some kind of judgment upon us will ultimately follow. I agree.)