I don't have a magic button, formula, poultice or crystal ball. Let me give you 2 examples of a warning flag...

1. Any VISTA windowblind. - That is self explanatory.
2. A map of the world that is obviously a reproduction of a professional mapping company or map reproduction company.

Triggers.. causes for alarm and concern. Not rocket science.  

And don't be bitter about it. As Po' pointed out, the guidelines were relaxed and during that process I think that the attention was eased some as well.

Not everyone has kids. Tons of people on WC spend all day on the net checking out skins and walls and whatever else. Those are the people that would be the best at this if you are going to moderate, otherwise just be like every other site and let everything in and let the original artists point out the rips.

Knowing the wealth of content available in the community is not the only qualification for moderator.  It helps, but there are many other characteristics that we look for when deciding to promote someone.

1. Good Attitude
   Moderators must also be positive members of the community and be a generally good influence.
2. Diplomatic
   When problems arise, do they respond with a cool head and take angry comments or insults in stride?  Can they get a point across to an angry skinner without making the situation worse?
3. Fair & Objective
   Can they put aside friendships and community politics when moderating submissions?  When giving that initial rating, it should be for the work and not for the name attached.
4. Familiar With Their Gallery
   You need to be able to use and test the items you moderate.  The more knowledgable you are about your particular gallery the better. 

Always remember that it's a limited number of us, versus a very large number of you.  I'll use wallpapers as a specific example since I personally spend a lot of time in that queue.  We receive an average of 40 submissions to that library each day.  If a moderator were to spend 5 minutes on each submission to do some basic searching on each item submitted, to ensure it's not a rip, you're looking at roughly 24 hours total spent on wallpaper submissions alone.  That actually comes out to 3 full business days of work.  To make that workload reasonable for volunteers, we'd need to trim it down to 1 hour per person per day, max.  That means we'd need 5 moderators dedicated to that gallery alone, assuming they each put in 1hr a day for 5 days a week.  More likely because everyone has lives outside their PC, we'd need double that covering just the one gallery.

Sometimes, the rips are very apparant.  There are a lot of items that you folks never see because we catch them in moderation and kick them back.  We kick a lot of "suspicious" stuff back too waiting for response from the author.  Most of the time, we never hear back from our emails and we just drop the entry.  You see the ones that slip through.  You miss out on the dozens upon dozens that we reject each and every week. 

It's easy to assume that we're suddenly asleep on the job, but that's only because you're only seeing when we screw up.  The moderators on this site work very hard to prevent rips from getting through, and in general they nail them spot-on.  But as more and more work is submitted to WinCustomize, the greater the chance that something will be missed.  Many of our moderators have been doing this for years, and the item that kicked this whole thing off, was something they hadn't seen before.

You don't need to be so politically correct at this, just know what you're doing. It "ain't" that hard.

Damn, you make it sound like it's such a big thing. 30, 40, 50 things for someone to moderate?

Yeah, it's hard if you don't spend time at other sites...but if you do, it's not hard at all.

But to the people that actually spend time going to other skinning sites, it's very apparent that the mods miss way too much.

I don't feel that people are faulting the Moderators. I believe most of the people I see respond to these types of forum posts are intelligent enough to understand how some things work and that other people, like themselves, are only human as well.

What I keep seeing are requests to fix a system that may have a little room for improvement or tweaking...or in absence of that...some news on what is in the works to do something about some of these issues. I won't give any 'for instances' because I believe plenty of suggestions have been made over the past few months. What's frustrating is the one's that are a definite 'no' are pointed out as such and so many get no response at all.

I'm not talking about 'big changes' to the site design or 'watch for this to come' followed by a 'wink' and a 'smile'..but actual articles or posts addressing these issues and what is in the works to fix them. Or even a note that says 'We ain't changing a fucking thing, so go hump a rock.'

Maybe it's just me...it's definitely just MHO, but there is a certain level of frustration that comes with 'no response', 'a lack of response', or a 'we're looking into it/working on it' , over and over again. If I am the only one who feels this way, then I apologize, but this sitting on the fence, middle of the road crap is getting old. I would like to know what is being done, can be done or won't be done. The last thing, I believe, anyone wants to feel when they are part of a community is that their opinion, desires for the community, complaints, whatever don't matter or merit a complete response...and they don't want to feel like a mushroom, in the dark and fed manure all the time. IMHO.

No, not hard.  Time consuming is the point I'm trying to make.  5min per wallpaper equals just shy of 24 hours of work in a week.  Some items take longer than 5min too when we have to go back to the author for clarification.  The point I'm trying to make is that this is not something that can simply be whipped through in just a few minutes.  Especially considering the amount of checking some on this thread expect to be done on any submissions.

It's very easy to assume that handling these things is simple, quick, etc.  But until you have sat on the other side of the line, doing the work, dealing with the issues etc, you simply don't know what's involved.  And it's extremely disrespectful to the people who do volunteer to help make this site function to make those assumptions and imply that they are doing a poor job.

 

What is not coming across is that  . . there isn't something "broken" with the site; for the most part moderation works.  It even works to the extent that when something gets by the mods, you, the community get them and report it.

You are part of the system and it works.  If everyone does their best work it may not always be good enough but it's still our best work and that should suffice.

Thank you for all the support.

There are always great suggestions on how to improve the site.  Many of which we put into 2k7, and will be putting into 2k8.  We can't respond to every post with a suggestion though, but we are reading them and do take them into consideration.  We make an effort to respond when we have a chance or when we have some feedback, but more often than not all we can do is jot the idea down on the wish list and save it for when the project rolls around.

Due to the complexity of the site, and the many other projects our net dev team is working on, we have to bundle multiple "little" features into the larger annual projects.  That's why it seems like we're slow to add features or functions.  We have so much development bandwidth, and we have to use it where most effective.

that's my feel since many time:
I think moderators make everyday an awesome work
I think skinners/downloaders help when they see a Rip( or they believe it's one ) in PM or email or goes on IRC (via SCD or Wincutomize browser -> Chat) but we need to get patience as Zoomba said . I understand well the feels of many of you, Boss especially know my feeling under Ripping but i guess don't show this in public area is really the best thing we can make.
This is what i think and made.

That's a load of crap. We don't need to hear the whining....people that mod should know what they are moderating and be familiar with it.

If a site is going to be moderated, the mods should spend more than a couple of hours at other sites seeing what is out there.

If they have other things to do besides that, they shouldn't be mods.

Just because somebody made them a mod doesn't mean they know what they are doing......

Oh, and Po....grow some balls....IMO...IMVHO...all that garbage.....say what you mean and don't try to not get banned for what you want to say. Just say it!

I think both sides should relax, seems like the mods are doing the best they can given what they have to work with and perhaps everyone shouldnt get in such a tizzy over rips, I can understand if it affecting you financially, in most , if not all cases it is not. Fairry, if WC doesn't seem that concerned with it, then why kill yourself over it.?

Couple of suggestions for WC, MORE volunteer's.. perhaps not a "mod" but a QC position, people that DO scour all the sites and can notice a RIP more easily and the implemetation of a Report Rip or Report policy violation button at the bottom of submission pages as is the case on DA and to my experience is the best way to expedite the problem. It does seem as if Stardock tends to stretch itself logistically in too many directions leaving holes to be plugged and this seems to be a good example of that.

All in all though, members and mods shouldn't be ripping (pardon the pun) each others throats out over it.

Let it be.

lol

Boss, I could say a lot of things. Truth is, I have talked to some admins and mods on the side as I am sure a few people have...and I still don't understand how it all works.

It's not their job, either, to give us every little detail on how the site operates. That being said, I will stick with 'IMHO, etc.' because I DON'T KNOW it all. Believe me, if I did I would be on a real freakin' storm of a rant.

It seems more stuff gets pushed to the wayside or ignored when someone comes off as if they do know it all.

But, just for the hell of it, and so there is no confusion, I'll tell you exactly how I feel. I'm not afraid of being banned as much as I am afraid not being a viable voice anymore, if I am one at all.

So, here it is.

1. I think there is a lot of bull doled out that we are supposed to take as is. Half assed explanations, answers, etc. I think the members deserve better. I think they need ONE person, at least, who is the , shall we say, 'public relations' person to handle all of this instead of 3 or 4 or 5 admins and mods all chiming in on different points of interest, etc.

2. I think they bit off more than they can chew with relaxing their upload policies. I don't think the amount of threads there have been on just these issues in the past couple months was anticipated, nor the overwhelming response from members to do something about said issues. I am sure someone can chime in and say 'It's always been that way.' and they may be right. I don't know. It feels otherwise to me.

3. I think that ALL the mods should have a list of uploaders who need more 'watching'..perhaps a kind of probation..and they need to communicate more than periodically on said list. (This may already exist, I don't know.)

4. I think they need a 'Report RIP' area (Which may be in the works. I believe I heard it mentioned. Again, I DON'T KNOW) and at least ONE person should moderate it and nothing else.

5. I think some Mods and Admins discourage new people and people who don't savvy the site or how such an animal might operate, by talking down to them. This is why I use 'IMHO'. I, personally, have fucked up here a few times. I have pissed off members, admins, volunteer's. I thought about some of the shit I did, and realize I was in error. I also realize that I have a title here. Small as it may be. As insignificant as it may be..I am proud of it. That is why I always have it displayed. Being that I do that, I feel I have a responsibility to live up to it and try to be helpful and represent the site well, even when Mods or Admins (I am not saying ALL mods and Admins) may chose not to. I don't think noob's or anyone coming here should feel that anyone or everyone who has a title before their handle is an asshole. I try the best I can. Maybe not hard enough. Maybe I am still fucking up. I don't know for sure.


6. I don't get around HALF as much as some do..maybe most, so if I can spot so many RIPS, ...well, wtf? When a persons entire bootscreen or logon gallery is made up entirely from walls or work THEY didn't originate and you start finding RIPS in that gallery, it's not hard to go from there and wonder about the rest of it. But it seems , sometimes, more and more of that persons crap gets through despite or in spite.

7. I think the site is very political in it's promotions, etc. I mean that in a 'bad' way. And I am not saying all are wrong. I will say, I got mine when I didn't deserve it (I still don't know WHY I got it. I was VERY new and not a huge contributor) and it probably should have been pulled over the bootscreen I did. But, this is only another reason I say 'IMHO etc.' I am just trying to be respectful. Nothing more.

8. I fucking resent anyone telling me I have NO BALLS (I would refer you back to the bootscreen I submitted to make a point, bno matter how badly I made it in the end.) I am trying constructively, conscientiously, and calmly to get my own answers and push for other people when I feel like they don't get THEIR answers. Maybe they don't want me to. I don't know. They can PM me and tell me they don't need my help, and I won't cry and have 6 shots to wash away my blues. Maybe my voice doesn't matter, has grown old, or is just a fucking joke. I don't know. But I try the best way I know how, until I hear I am a joke or I will never make a difference. Then I will keep my thoughts to myself and that will be that.

9. Finally..I am about at the point of just saying to hell with it all. But, I am trying to maintain some dignity. Because you get to a point where you have tried everything else and you feel like that is all you have left.

do you know "by sight" the millions of wallpapers out there and know the name of each and every author??? no, because it's impossible.it's pretty arrogant to sit here ripping up the mod's when you yourself could no better master the task you set for them..... the admins can only do so much, thats why we need to be self policing and report any rips we find..

occasionally things slip through but they get caught and removed...

the mods I imagine were offered the job because they went above and beyond the duties of normal users, as well as exhibit the maturity to handle the job with finesse.

I think your a viable voice...and can I get a shot too plz   

Yes, things will be missed, on occasion.
The mods USED to push artists to do better by rejecting more walls. I hated that in the beginning but it did make me strive to do better.
Congrats for catching the ones that don't get through, but a mod title does not always guarantee 100% performance. The mods need that pushing now and then, just like they used to give to us.

Yes, things will still get through now and then, but I don't think the blatantly obvious ones will get through as much if everyone pays attention to the spidey sense.  


(Now, I'm off to get that mental pic of a manure fed Po out humping a rock out of my head!!!)  

Websites don't exist in some perfect alternative universe. 

Most sites don't even moderate at all.  We try our best but it's just not reasonable to expect a 100% catch rate.  Even now, most wallpapers are rejected or made available only on personal pages.

If someone thinks they can do it better, then, by all means, set up your own site and go for it.

WinCustomize is what it is.  I think it's a pretty awesome place.  But YMMV. There are other sites one can visit if they think WC is poorly run and what not.

 

Anyone who thinks submission moderation is easy is talking out of their arse.

Simple as that.

I won't mince words because I am getting bloody tired of people being critical and negative about what my fellow moderators do or appear not to do.

No-one, no matter how many kids he does NOT have, nor how many hours he spends glued to his computer will EVER be able to determine whether any or all uploads are a rip issue or not.

I guarantee that 100%.

Take one wallpaper upload.  Call it 'Sunrise'. How the HELL do you think you can magically do a Google search for 'sunrise' and wow gosh gee look at that...it's a rip......when it was renamed from 'moon over Aardvark on Tuesday' or something?

Yes, it's so bloody easy it will take probably a year or ten per EVERY WALL UPLOAD to be halfway guessing it isn't/is a rip.

Take a Windowblinds skin.  Bit more 'particular'/rare than a wallpaper ...but it has LOTS of images, any one of which may indicate a theft issue, or not.

Same goes for all the other Wincustomize.com galleries.

Anyone claiming this process is easy and thus the moderators are deficient/incapable are disparaging the efforts of their fellow site members and may be better served creating their OWN site where they can show how easy it is...and leave this one.

I won't miss them.

Here's my take on the system of identifying rips and removing them:

The mods try to get what they can knowing what they know.
The community gets the rest.

Simple no?

Again, you are PART of the same system.  Mods do their part as best they can, you do the same.  Everyone is a winner.

Here's how you, the community can do your part:

• find a mod via email, PM or IRC.
  
• Until you hear from them, DO NOTHING.
  
• Don't comment on the skin or in the forums.
• Wait a while.
• After a day or two, re-PM or email another mod.
  
• Don't expect a direct reply.
• You may be wrong or the mod may have dealt with it some other way.

Trust that Stardock is aware that ripping is an issue.  Trust that Stardock wants the process to be as simple as possible for the artists, the mods, and the community of users.  Trust that they take the useful suggestions adn do what they can with them.

I'm going to agree with Brad on this one.  You should vote with your feet if you think this site is not up to your standards.  You should run as fast as you can to some other better site or build your own.

I do my best to be (dare I say it) moderate but this post chapped my hide.  I *still* didn't go off on a tirade and be divisive.  You want the site to be better, be part of the system.