Do you have any idea how arrogant and self-righteous this is? This single statement epitomizes the Pharisees perfectly. No wonder Jesus was so pissed at them.

KFC, I never said he was in Hell. I never would - I don't believe that's my decision to make.

If you're so acquainted with Mormon doctrine as you supposedly say you are, you know that I believe he's in the spirit world right now, finding out things are quite a bit different than how he envisioned it. I didn't say he was in Hell, or even a spiritual prison - just a very different circumstance than he thought - no clouds, no harps, no wings, none of that.

You invented vitriol where there was none to be found.

I covered this when I said:





oh, well I was just responding to what you said in #21 not way back up in #12. I didn't know when you said what you did in #21 what exactly you had in mind.



see this is not true. For the rest of the story you need to go to the original source. The Chronicles are the annuals of Israel from Adam to the capativity. In a sense it is a miniature OT tracing in capsule form of OT history.

You need to go to 2 Samuel 24 and there you'll see it was not a sin of David ALONE. God was against all of Israel at this time. 24:1 says:

And Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah." Chronicles is referring to this section of scripture.

There is a huge story behind this one in which Satan was very much involved. It ends with the selection of a site for the temple in Jerusalem and turns out to be a fitting climax to this phase of David's activity. Just like the Holocaust in which Satan was very much involved and many died as a result but the ending climax to that story as well was the return of the land to the Jews.

There's a plan going on. God always takes something evil and turns it around for good. Too many times God is the one blamed for what Satan is doing behind the scenes.

For more research on this you really need to read Numbers 1 and 26, 1 Chron 27:23-24, 1 Chron 20:8 (conclusion of previous chapter to see connection as to why David did what he did).

Hopefully you will see that David did indeed sin and that Satan, not god was to blame, but also all Israel was covered with blame as well. They were as guilty as their king. Thus God dealt with all Israel thru the act of the King who exemplifed the national spirit of pride.

SC

We don't do clouds harps and wings either...well maybe wings because we know the Seraphim and the Cherubim had many wings.



Well, if I did, then I apologize but it didn't sound very nice to me, and certainly not funny.

Mason,

at least if you're going to quote me, at least quote me in full. I was referring to a specific section of scripture and the bias presented on this subject. You're doing exactly what the media does with their sound bites. What do we call
this.....JU bites?

I was also having a discussion with Baker. This is the part of JU I hate. When others go after one and gang up on somebody because they said something not knowing the "other" discussions us two have had elswhere. I've told Baker elsewhere regarding certain scriptures that he did a great job. Where were you then Mason?

did you NOT read anything I said in #18 because I'm thinking I just wasted my time.

You cannot take human definitions and put them on the divine. God is not vindictive as you stated. I agree. It's men who are, not God. I pretty much explained it in #18. It's love not hate that God is exhibiting even though you don't believe it to be so. It's the curbing of sin for those who are left behind.

Oh and I'll just add vindictiveness to the list of names you keep throwing at me. You got any more in your book?

How am I vindictive? You know Baker, I've said 100 times when the name calling starts...you know what I'm thinking.

No, actually in that statement you claimed a better understanding of scripture. Pure ego.

No, KFC. God gave David a choice of punishment. It wasn't Satan God addressed as the culprit, nor was it Satan who carried it out, but an ANGEL. This is just more Phelps stuff... supposedly it was the sinfulness that made God slaughter 70k people according to what you were saying.

Sound familiar? It's the same attitude that sinfulness that is causing out problems here in America. Hurricanes, diseases, terrorist attacks, etc., are described as just God's hedge being removed because of our sins. God, in that light, is a terrorist, too. Would a perfect God really say 'do what I say or I'll kill your kids'?



There's nothing there that says God picks the sinful to kill. There's nothing there in Job that says Job's family was a burden of sin on the world, or that the firstborn of Egypt were especially sinful. No, more often God LEAVES the sinner and kills third parties, as with the Egyptian firstborn, and David, above.

So you say God lets innocent people die out of love, Phelps says God does it out of hate. You both agree that God allows a lot of people to suffer because of sins they didn't commit. Two sides of the same blasphemous coin, imo.

First off LW.....you, as did Mason decided to quote a portion of my sentence. Why not quote my whole sentence? Doesn't suit your purpose? And of all the stuff I've mentioned here and elsewhere is that the worst thing I said? So even if you are correct (and you're not) big deal. So.....I said he doesn't understand scripture.....shoot me!

They crucified Christ for less. I'm not surprised at you for taking a small few words I said and twisting it to suit your pleasure.

BTW....for you and Mason. Did you read "Why I Believe?" which totally contradicts your assesment of me.

BTW LW....if I remember correctly.....you said you WOULD NEVER SET FOOT IN MY SPACE AGAIN. So, doesn't that make you not a woman of your word? So before you work on my faults..........

Heck, I don't mind if you behave yourself, you can stick around, but it does get tiring that all you do is come here to criticize.

Geesh, that's enough isn't it to start a flame war against me now? You say a lot worse about others, I'd think you'd be a little embarrased saying what you just said to me.

No, KFC. God gave David a choice of punishment. It wasn't Satan God addressed as the culprit, nor was it Satan who carried it out, but an ANGEL. This is just more Phelps stuff... supposedly it was the sinfulness that made God slaughter 70k people according to what you were saying

I keep saying Baker that God does these things to "curb sin." He doesn't do it out of hate or vindictiveness or revenge. Yes, he's in control of his world and he allows things to happen and even causes them to happen. Sometimes it's Satan and we still blame God don't we? In all reality we can say it's God because God does allow Satan to roam right now.

Think about it with our own kids, we need sometimes go to drastic measures to stop our kids from ruining themselves. When we punish them, we don't like it, it's not enjoyable at all but it has to be done. I would do anything to get between my sons and anything that will take them down. God knows things that we don't. God knows who the instigators are that we don't. God can read hearts. He created them he knows what they are made of. We don't know what's inside a man, but God does. We can only go by the fruit.

Yes, God gave David a choice. David and his crew had to pay for following Satan. Remember throughout all this God is trying to keep Israel pure while Satan is trying to corrupt it. I'm going to be going into depth with this on my very next blog. It's the next Revelation one 9-17. It involves Baalam and Balak. . Maybe it will help shed light even on this section. It's the same idea. You see this happening repeatedly. There are always warnings before any of this stuff happens. God never, never strikes without repeated warnings.

If you read the other passages that shed light on just the small bit you gave me, it should help clear things up. Did you do that? Did you not see that it was pride that brought the people down? Do you not know that pride is the #1 sin and it comes from Satan? God gave clear directives and they dismissed them thinking they were better than God. God knew what was around the corner as they started to stray from him into the all to willing grip of Satan. That's why he did what he did. Sin brings serious consequences and God wants us to know that. It was a bit diff here in these times because the nation Israel HAD to stay intact and they were in danger of being assimilated into other nations. Right now we can see they are still here today as a result of the provision of God. I'm sure they were constant work but I think the Jews still here today are the biggest testament to scripture today.

Would a perfect God really say 'do what I say or I'll kill your kids'?

This goes always back to the Sovereignty of God Baker. I think that is your problem in a nutshell and I'm not saying that unkindly. I think it's something you wrestle with. These are not our kids. All of this world and everything in it is God's. Not mine. Not yours. My kids were my responsibility and then I set them free. I was to be their manager for God so to speak. They were to learn about HIM thru me and my husband. We will someday be held accountable for our kids. For what we did with what God gave us.

You mention Job. Job is another matter. Job was in the fire and he withstood it. He's an example for the rest of us. He's an example of what God will do for those who trust him. Sure it sucked to be Job for a bit. He understood and God knew he did. He said "naked I came and naked I go, blessed be the name of the Lord." But he endured and God blessed him and gave him double as a reward later. Job is now living in eternity with 20 children. That is forever. I'm sure he's in hog heaven right now. God doesn't take any that are innocent. From a biblical perspective none of us are innocent. We are born "dead" in our sin.

but I've started no flame war here. You and Baker have been at it for 30+ comments yet my mild poke at your semantics is starting a flame war?

no I wasn't exactly thinking here...usually you save that for your space. Mild poke? Oh, so you have like.....degrees to this?

And that's the thing.....I mean if Baker wanted to accuse me of anything improper that's ok. because I'm addressing him...but I don't think others need to get inbetween two original parties discussing things especially since they don't know other past conversations we've had that may shed light on the present one. Baker didn't dwell on or make a big deal out of it because I've told him other places he had a good handle on scripture on a much diff topic. Besides, you should know me by now....I'm not one to mince words. I say it as I see it. Diplomacy is not my strong suit.....but I am getting better.....lol. You should have seen me before.

Sheesh, KFC. You credit me with far more influence here than I actually have.

ya think? Well I'm thinking you like that......so in effect, aren't I just making your day?

Well you know us heathens. We lie.

soooooooo I can call you a heathen.....but just not ungodly.....lol?