What's Up With That?

from JoeUser Forums
With palms together,
Good Morning Everyone,

Last night's discussion on Zen brought up many challenging points and like all points, we must be careful not to get stuck on them. One point that is particularly sticky is the one we might label "two things at once."

We say the dharma is and is not. We say form is empty, yet it is not. We say bad and good are, and yet, are not. We say there is no birth or death, and yet, obviously, there is. So, how is this possible?

Our original face, let's call it Big Mind, existed before our parents were born, exists now, as I type, manifests itself in my fingers, the keys, the light that carries this signal, and indeed, in my butt as I sit here typing. It is in all these, yet these things appear to be separate.

It is the appearance that is the illusion. Our brain, hardwired as it is, to see, sort, and store, in categories of similar and dissimilar, creates this illusion the moment we are born. The problem is, this illusion has form.

No amount of thinking will yield our true nature. Its a tightly crafted nut: apes studying ourselves see apes. So thinking produces thinking and the result, a thought, is no more real than the original question.

Our only recourse is the witness.

We call this process "Zazen."

And it is the way of all buddhas in all faiths.

Be well.
religion
2,540 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello Sodaiho,

You write, We say the dharma is and is not. We say form is empty, yet it is not. We say bad and good are, and yet, are not. We say there is no birth or death, and yet, obviously, there is. So, how is this possible?
It is the appearance that is the illusion. Our brain, hardwired as it is, to see, sort, and store, in categories of similar and dissimilar, creates this illusion the moment we are born. The problem is, this illusion has form.



As I was reading your article, the tune and the words of one of the Beatle's song that goes something like, "I say yes and you say no, You say stop and I say, go, go , go,....." kept popping into my mind. And of course the difference here from your examples is these are opposite realities while your examples deny reality calling it illusion having form.

The answer to your question is that it's certainly possible to deny reality because we can mess with our brain. We see that this happens all too often and where does denying reality or pretending it is illusion having form really get us? To a state of nowhere or nothingness? Is that the goal? Perhaps. Even so, that doesn't take away reality or change the nature in our heart. For one to be in the land of nothingness, first, one would have to live in a vaccuum which is an impossibility and second, our human nature written on our heart seeks happiness, and not nothingness.


I have read not only this article but your others as well. They all present a certain philosophy which I cannnot but call the philosophy of despair and which is quite certainly a philosophy of negation. It presents this gloom for acceptance by the individual mind.


Peace.




Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
As I was reading your article, the tune and the words of one of the Beatle's song that goes something like, "I say yes and you say no, You say stop and I say, go, go , go,....." kept popping into my mind. And of course the difference here from your examples is these are opposite realities while your examples deny reality calling it illusion having form.

Hello L: Thank you for this thoughtful reply, and more, for reading these little bits. The challenging, prpbably most challenging aspect of teaching Zen is the same challenging aspect, I think, in teaching Christianity.

While it is often said that one is a practice and the other a faith, my sense is both are indeed practices leading to the same place, a unity with the Universe. You call that Universe "Jesus," I call it "Universe" or "Buddha Mind," "Original Mind," etc. With Christianity, the starting place is faith in a man and his words (your God and His Scripture). With Zen, the begining is only in the practice of being still.

In most religious traditions, being still, as in prayer, or contemplation, leads us to a "place" even amid chaos, where God or the Universe reveals itself to us. At this point, we see that the slices we have made parsing this and that are a result of our own inability to grasp the totality of the Universe (or God).


The answer to your question is that it's certainly possible to deny reality because we can mess with our brain. We see that this happens all too often and where does denying reality or pretending it is illusion having form really get us? To a state of nowhere or nothingness? Is that the goal? Perhaps. Even so, that doesn't take away reality or change the nature in our heart. For one to be in the land of nothingness, first, one would have to live in a vaccuum which is an impossibility and second, our human nature written on our heart seeks happiness, and not nothingness.


Very good! There is an old Koan, you have climbed to the top of a hundred foot pole. Now student, what ids your next step!

The hundred foot pole is the old monk's way of saying exactly what you have said. But this is not the answer, nor the end, as the koan demands an answer and our continued practice.

Seeing through to the true nature of the universe as impermenant, constant process, constant change, to the point that even God's name is a verb, means that there is nothing to stand upon that doesn't eventually morph and the one standing is always in the process of change, as well.

Christians often repeat the mantra, seek and ye shall find. I add find and you are lost. To stand static in front of this Universe is a sure sign of blindness.

I have read not only this article but your others as well. They all present a certain philosophy which I cannnot but call the philosophy of despair and which is quite certainly a philosophy of negation. It presents this gloom for acceptance by the individual mind.


Then you have not read carefully and looked beneath the words. There is no despair here. Zen Buddhism is a most optomistic practice. It points to the fact that we are all already enlightened beings, all already with God, to use your language. Each of us is completely pure and perfect just as we are. What is despairing there? I do not say reality does not exist. I do not say anything does not exist. I say all existence is in flux and nothing exists as a permenent, stable reality. In this, our effort should be to cease doing things that harm. do things that are good, and bring about conditions for good to arise everywhere. How is this possibly despairing?


Again, L, thank you so much!

Be well.

Peace.

DeskScapes - Bring your desktop background to life.
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
The challenging, prpbably most challenging aspect of teaching Zen is the same challenging aspect, I think, in teaching Christianity.



Ah, here the teacher in you is coming out and you would certainly know whether teaching Zen is challenging or not. I would agree that teaching Christianity is challenging, yet easy at the same time because Jesus is so lovable. He is also the divine origin and authority of the Catholic Church which has been for 2,000 years a social and religious phenomenon unique and comparable to nothing else. The line of cleavage lies between the Faith upon one side and all other human opinions and moods upon the other.


While it is often said that one is a practice and the other a faith, my sense is both are indeed practices leading to the same place, a unity with the Universe. You call that Universe "Jesus," I call it "Universe" or "Buddha Mind," "Original Mind," etc. With Christianity, the starting place is faith in a man and his words (your God and His Scripture).


Buddhism is considered a religion, yet affirms no divine authority. I think we both practice our respective faith. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Zen Buddhism the practice that eventually gets one to Nirvana? Is Nirvana unity with the universe, one's final point of destination?


I practice Catholicism (ALL the teachings of Jesus in faith, hope and charity)in my earthly life journey in the hope of attaining life everlasting (seeing the face of God).
How do I practice Catholicism? Yes, most definitely through the gift of supernatural virtue of Faith. Of Faith I would say, Yes, this stone is a stone and there are multitudes of stones, but I believe this particular stone to be a talisman.

SOdaiho, you say, With Christianity, the starting place is faith in a man and his words (your God and His Scripture).

The Catholic faith is in a Man and His Word, both oral (Tradition) and written (Scripture). Of Jesus, yes, this Man was a man, and there have been countless millions of men; but this One Man and this One Man only, was also God.


Each of us is completely pure and perfect just as we are.


This is denying reality--an illusion having form. We are far from completely pure and perfect.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Christians often repeat the mantra, seek and ye shall find. I add find and you are lost.


Ha, and you say, "There is no despair here. Zen Buddhism is a most optomistic practice."

Do good, be good.
Peace



Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Christians often repeat the mantra, seek and ye shall find. I add find and you are lost.


Ha, and you say, "There is no despair here. Zen Buddhism is a most optomistic practice."


Another blessing. Thank you. Careful L, to find or know is the height of ignorance. Better to have a "don't know" mind. A don't know mind is always open. It is closed systems that wither and die.

Buddhism is considered a religion, yet affirms no divine authority. I think we both practice our respective faith. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Zen Buddhism the practice that eventually gets one to Nirvana? Is Nirvana unity with the universe, one's final point of destination?


No. This is Hinayana Buddhism (the so-called lesser vehicle). Mahayana Buddhism (the so-called Greater Vehicle), of which zen is a part, suggests that there is no "nirvana" to "get. Nirvana and samsara are two sides of the same coin. So, our practice is to manifest our True Nature here and now.

This is denying reality--an illusion having form. We are far from completely pure and perfect.


And who is in despair now? each of us possess all the tools we need to live a deeply fulfilling, socially and spiritually satisfying life. Both as a Jew and a Zen Buddhist, but more I think as a human being, I just cannot accept the Catholic (or otherwise Christian) belief in original sin. I believe this is a gross distortion and it has poisoned our minds for millenia. And an insult against God's creation. Of course people do bad things, yet they also do many, many good things. Good and bad come from the cloudy thinking produced by the three poisons, greed, hatred, and delusion. We treat these with generosity, compassion and wisdom and the bad choices melt away. Before a thought arises, are you pure? Of course. A clear mind is a pure mind. Practice this.

Be well.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mahayana Buddhism (the so-called Greater Vehicle), of which zen is a part, suggests that there is no "nirvana" to "get. Nirvana and samsara are two sides of the same coin. So, our practice is to manifest our True Nature here and now.


So, from what you've said so far about Zen, I can only conclude that "manifesting your True Nature here and now" is tantamount to turning (or even denying)reality (or truth for that matter) into illusion having form.

Religious practice is natural to man. When men try to construct religious practice in accordance with their natural instinct and needs, they will naturally hit on some truth. This is what I find when I read what you write about the practices of Zen Buddhism.

Truth mixed with denial of it and redefining reality as illusion having form. This is very strange and confusing to me. I couldn't be content practicing a system like that of Zen Buddhism which obviously contains some truth yet has so much accompanying human error.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
So, from what you've said so far about Zen, I can only conclude that "manifesting your True Nature here and now" is tantamount to turning (or even denying)reality (or truth for that matter) into illusion having form.


We do neither. That is impossible. Reality exists without us on one level, but we construct it on another level by the acts of seeing, hearing, smelling tasting, touching, and thinking. Our practice, true religious practice, moves us deeply past the constructed reality of these five aggregates and to the reality that resides beneath them.

Religious practice is natural to man. When men try to construct religious practice in accordance with their natural instinct and needs, they will naturally hit on some truth. This is what I find when I read what you write about the practices of Zen Buddhism.


All religious practice will get us to the same place eventually. Our Sixth Patriarch, Master Hui Neng said the same. Some of us are slow learners, others are quick. Each require different methods and perhaps different understandings. Our natural instincts are toward life, not death; toward good, not bad. It is in our best interest to promote one over the other.

Truth mixed with denial of it and redefining reality as illusion having form. This is very strange and confusing to me. I couldn't be content practicing a system like that of Zen Buddhism which obviously contains some truth yet has so much accompanying human error.



Lula: Zen is very confusing for those living in dualism. I would be interested in knowing what you believe the errors in "the system" of Zen Buddhism are.

Have you read Thomas Merton?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Our practice, true religious practice, moves us deeply past the constructed reality of these five aggregates and to the reality that resides beneath them.


I'm just trying to dig deeper and understand what you say. What is the reality that resides beneath the one that we construct on another level by the acts of seeing, hearing, smelling tasting, touching, and thinking?[quote]



All religious practice will get us to the same place eventually.


So are you saying that all religions, or no religion at all, will get us to the same place eventually?

What is that same place that you speak of?


Our natural instincts are toward life, not death; toward good, not bad. It is in our best interest to promote one over the other.


This is absolutely and universally true.


All religious practice will get us to the same place eventually. Our Sixth Patriarch, Master Hui Neng said the same.


I said: religious practice is natural to man. To which you replied: All religious practice will get us to the same place eventually. Our Sixth Patriarch, Master Hui Neng said the same.

You can see that we are not saying the same thing. And your Sixth Patriarch is not saying what I said either.


I would be interested in knowing what you believe the errors in "the system" of Zen Buddhism are.


I have already described to you what I think the errors of practice of Buddhism are, specifially what they lead to: They all present a certain philosophy which I cannnot but call the philosophy of despair and which is quite certainly a philosophy of negation. It presents this gloom for acceptance by the individual mind.

I may be completely wrong, it seems to me from reading your posts, the practices seem to deconstruct realities into imaginations (in order to deal with those realities). In short, the religious practice of Buddhism, (don't know about Zen), is a form of Escapism to nothingness.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm just trying to dig deeper and understand what you say. What is the reality that resides beneath the one that we construct on another level by the acts of seeing, hearing, smelling tasting, touching, and thinking?[



This reality must be experienced. As soon as we put it into words we are in error.

So are you saying that all religions, or no religion at all, will get us to the same place eventually? What is that same place that you speak of?


God. The Universal. Buddha Mind. Yes, I believe all religious practices get us to that same place eventually. Some may take longer than others, eons longer.

I said: religious practice is natural to man. To which you replied: All religious practice will get us to the same place eventually. Our Sixth Patriarch, Master Hui Neng said the same.

You can see that we are not saying the same thing. And your Sixth Patriarch is not saying what I said either.


Yes. You add:

When men try to construct religious practice in accordance with their natural instinct and needs, they will naturally hit on some truth. This is what I find when I read what you write about the practices of Zen Buddhism.


All religions are human constructions approximating what the humans involved believe thir ultimate purpose and connection to the universe might be. You suggest these are alongthe lines of natural instinct and need, I assume dividing what you think are the revealed religions from these. Myself and Zen, and our sixth Patriarch, would argue each is true, each has a way, and each will get us to the same place, just in different spans of time.

I have already described to you what I think the errors of practice of Buddhism are, specifially what they lead to: They all present a certain philosophy which I cannnot but call the philosophy of despair and which is quite certainly a philosophy of negation. It presents this gloom for acceptance by the individual mind.

I may be completely wrong, it seems to me from reading your posts, the practices seem to deconstruct realities into imaginations (in order to deal with those realities). In short, the religious practice of Buddhism, (don't know about Zen), is a form of Escapism to nothingness.


Lulapilgrim, I have addressed this several times. Our practices do not lead to despair, quite the opposite, a boundless joy. Negation is a practice that leads to first, complete clarity, and second, an affirmation. Its the essence of the dialectical process. The individual mind is all we have to work with. The quest is to open it and let it see its true, universal, nature.

I think you are, indeed, "completely wrong" as you continue to perceive wityh your own glasses and filter what you read. We do not deconstruct reality. We engage it as it is. What we do to do this, is attemptto set aside what we believe we know, thus allowing space for what is actually there. This is not imagination at play. Its winessing a process.

You keep maintaining the view that Buddhism is escapism. I can see where you minght think that. The language and practices take us away from what we know. Yet, away to the center of our existance. Beliefs are the real escapes. Thay are mental constructs that give us no space, and little permission to open to something outside of a thought.

The contemplative person just sits. In this process he or she awakens to that which is right there before him and sees it without recourse to a thought or belief about it. It is this that is the truth. It isd this that is I Am.

Be well.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sodaiho,

So the practice of Zen Buddhism is all about working the mind, escapism mind games is what I'd call it. And this brings the Zen practicioner boundless joy you say. Boundless joy, wow, that is some description. Is it a boundless joy that comes and goes or is it long-lasting?

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello Lula,

The practice of Zen Buddhism is all about being still. I am sorry you see being present as escapism; I see belief as just that, flight into idea. So, we have a fundamental disagreement. Very good. Boundless joy is joy that haws no self. It is life itself.

Be well.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello So Haido,

Thank you for your expressions of Zen practice. I found this discussion most interesting. Your description of Zen is much different from what I've read in books. Perhaps Zen can be different things to different people. In any event, while you are interesting, I can tell that Zen Buddhism does not interest me in the least...just not my cup of tea.

This past Sunday, the Scripture that was read while celebrating Mass concerned being joyful..and I thought of you and this discussion.

It was based on St. John 15: 9-11 and you can guess, I find the Scripture itself rather beautiful and joyful in and of itself.

"As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete."

The commentary on the verse in italics that follows is from Thomas de Celano (around 1190-1260) who wrote a biography of St. Francis and St. Clare.

“I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you”

Saint Francis maintained: “My best defense against all the plots and tricks of the enemy is still the spirit of joy. The devil is never so happy as when he has succeeded in robbing one of God’s servants of the joy in his or her soul. The devil always has some dust on hold that he blows into someone’s conscience through a small basement window so as to make opaque what is pure. But in a heart that is filled with joy, he tries in vain to introduce his deadly poison. The demons can do nothing against a servant of Christ whom they find filled with holy gladness; whereas a dejected, morose and depressed soul easily lets itself be submerged in sorrow or captured by false pleasures.”

That is why he himself always tried to keep his heart joyful, to preserve that oil of gladness with which his soul had been anointed (Ps 45:7). He took great care to avoid sorrow, the worst of illnesses, and when he felt that it was beginning to infiltrate his soul, he immediately had recourse to prayer. He said: “At the first sign of trouble, the servant of God must get up, begin to pray, and remain before the Father until the latter has caused him or her to retrieve the joy of the person who is saved.” (Ps 51:12)…

The one thing, So Haido, that we have in common is that I like to be silent and still especially after reading or hearing Sacred Scripture. Now that's boundless joy to me!!

In Peace,