I know exactly what it takes to make a skin, "brains" and the know how, just do not have the know how. Do appreciate the time & effort others put into the skins, but I can remember a few years ago, it seemed there where new skins almost everyday, this is not true today, the point was trying to make was: "there are not as many skins uploaded today as there has been in the past." Example: "Beatnik, Rainlendar, Winamp, & WinMedia" sometimes goes for days without a upload. One can go to "winamp.com" they do not have as many skins uploaded today as in the past. I did not mean to offend anyone, if I have, I apologise.

They asked a ???, and gave them my honest answer.

A LOT more goes into making skins today. When you consider some of the first windowblinds didn't even have the taskbar skinned, well...

Now you have animations and versions (wb4, wb5, vista...)

Same for Winamp and a lot of others.

Then there is the the struggle for 'original' content and idea's...so much has already been done.

With the exception of noobs (and not all of the noobs, btw) I think there is more thought put into the quality because so much CAN be done...and noob's like me will learn and adapt as we go along.

blast that didnt work, no matter, free beer would be good lol a free a liver with lifetime upgrades to go with it would be even better

Objectdesktop subs are for continuing development of OD,WC subs goes to supporting the running of the site and is only $10.00 if you're already a OD subscriber

I've never seen any info about that kind of discount. I'm a 2 year ODNT subscriber and it was $20 for the WC sub.

I have subscribed neither for shiny extra goodies nor for anything else but for a simple reason, "I love this community."

I'd love to pick your brains. There is so much I'd like to learn about skinning and how people have overcome their difficulties. For example...smx is one app I love...problem is the ini confuses the hell out of me. Tutorials and subscriber skins to teach and set examples, to me, would be a good idea.He wasn't supposed to be there...this was

This was....in previous post. Those two are taboo and have no place here. They can only stir ill feelings.

I'm sure it was an attempt at sarcasm and humor Uvah (hence the "lively" comment, those subjects always end up heated).

My vote is the first option. I'm not so into the galleries, a few skins here and there and I'm good to go. Being able to customize/add to our personal sites and change the layout of how certain things are displayed is my choice.

Well, this doesn't really have much to do with subscribing, but I would like to be able to have a "Preview" for CXP as you do in WB. You know, like in the advanced preview where you can see a sample of all the cursors you have, but in one window.

The biggest reason I haven't subscribed is the $20 cost. When I am trying a new piece of shareware, and I consider WinCustomize shareware, the cost is a big factor.

If the cost is $5 to $8 then usually I won't even think about registering it. If it looks cool and I know that I'll use it even a little bit in the future then I'll pay immediately.

Once the cost is greater than $10 then it has to be something that I know that I will use often before I register it.

At $20 or more, there is virtually no chance that I will immediately register it. I'll use it for a while and unless it somehow creeps into daily use then I will not end up registering it.

What exactly are you asking?

Are you saying that because I've downloaded 157 mb of files that WinCustomizeP (the Program) isn't shareware? I've downloaded those files without using WinCustomizeP. You seem to be implying that since I have downloaded 157 mb of files that I should pay for WinCustomizeP? Not that it matters, but I've been buying software from SD since the days of OS/2, I've always kept a constant subscription to OD, and I have paid for ObjectDock, CursorXP, and Aquarium.

The bottom line is that I just don't see any added benefit to me in purchasing WinCustomizeP, especially at $20 a year. It looks like it does a nice job of organizing and browsing files but I don't need that. WinCustomizeS (the site) tracks 25 different types of themes, widgets, and whatnot but I don't care about 20 of those.

WinCustomizeS makes it very easy to find OD releated files and that facilitates the sale of OD and other SD products. That is the same thing Apple does with the iTunes store. Apple makes very little money from the sales of music on the iTunes store but what it does is drive sales of the iPod.

WinCustomizeP may easily be worth $20 a year to a person who uses a dozen or more of the programs that WinCustomize (the site) tracks but it isn't worth $20 to me.

Honestly, I am surprised how you can even argue with someone who says that WinCustomizeP isn't worth $20 to them. If they say it isn't worth $20 to them then it isn't. If someone says that WinCustomizeP is worth $20 to them, then it is.

SD asked why people don't subscribe to WinCustomizeP. I don't because the benefits it offers simply aren't worth $20 a year to me.

As always, your mileage may vary.

I see no distinction between the site and the application.  The application is just one of the features of the site subscription..It is worthless without the site (and the database behind it).

I wasn't arguing with you about your choices.  I just didn't understand.  Because I make no distinction, it sounded like you were lumping all the features available in a subscription as not being worth $20 (actually $20 the first year and $20 for every 2-year renewal).

Advertisements are only as obtrusive as the site administrator makes them.

Perhaps if all those Master Skins were included in the subscription price, it might be worth it for the average Stardock program user. For the skin creator, I CAN see a value for the site for all the help, Q&A, and support without any additions. Especially since the program to make the skins is free, right? But support for Object Desktop programs themselves should be included in the price we pay for the program. Especially for Forum base solutions.

I already pay Stardock for the program that uses all the skins and really question when it comes to paying them again to use a skin that uses that program I already paid for. We can say that the Master Skinner Artists deserve to get paid for their work and dedication. We could also say that the users should get paid for advertising that artist's work.

I must agree. I've never felt any need to purchase the WC Browser for the 3 libraries I use. The irony is that I'd pay $20 a year more for OD if you raised the price that much and simply made WC a facet of the OD subscription. It seems to me there'd be absolutely no point to buying OD or Windowblinds, or CursorXP, or IconPackager without the skins being made available somehow.

I've purchased many premium suites and master skins and would pay for many more. I've also dl'd oodles and oodles of free skins, but mostly just so I could really see how they looked. If you charged something for ALL the skins on WC I would certainly be more selective in what I download, but I'd still buy quite a few. I want to see Stardock succeed and I want to see the skinners who work so hard get paid something. What I won't do is pay just to look around and see what's available - try a skin or 3 on - any more than I'd pay a fee to get inside my grocery store or to try on a dress. Actually, have you ever thought of making skins "trial version"? So people could try them on for a day or two, but would then have to pay if they want to keep them? Now that seems like a good way to make money to me.

But - your question was "what would make me want to pay for WC"...I suppose I'd pay for it if it was the only way to acquire new skins.

Hmmmmmmm........

Good points being brought up. For both sides.

However, the general list of subjects being brought up on the poll...really are far behind other well established sites. All free, will all stay free to view.

General Tech News: There are hundreds of these free sites...and though members/owners here are members and news posters at say, Neowin, don't stand a chance against the massive amount of new news posted. You'd have to pool together a list of news posters with dedicated areas of information. Some posts (no offense) here about news from Microsoft, or other areas of interest, can be days old...even so far as being a week behind.

Internet News: How would Wincustomize pull away from the typical crowd of those using MSN, or Yahoo for instance, as their home page. How would you compete against CNN.com...or other well established internet news sites or RSS feeders that we've been using for some time now?

Company Specific News: Eh.....we could find that out from Stardock. Unless we're going to have to pay to view that site as well. I see NO reason to have to subscribe just to find out apps being upgraded or new ones being released. You'd be the first to do that...and you'd be standing outside the crowd wondering why you'd be the only one.

Weird News: Define. Again tough to compete with.

Other: Well....this would be the only category worth expanding on...

Aside from helping new and intermediate skinners get their artistry off the ground, by sharing and commenting, paying to get premium skins is worth it. Worth paying for the skin...not to subscribe, then pay. Even with a discount. I'd rather pay the artist without any middle man...and if interested in a theme, I would contact that artist and pay them directly. If they choose to host it here, then they face the cost with that choice.

Wincustomize is far behind other established sites in regards to the poll's inquiries. Making it a pay for site...not going to produce any significant changes catapulting WC as a "must have" service.

Seeing an ad or two in the comments section is no issue. I see that as a necessary part of supporting a large community...and you'll hear no complaints from me should WC see fit to use advertising as a cost reducing plan.

I realize the cost of having this site can be overwhelming...but unless Brad and the boys are willing to fork out huge discounts like being a member of Sam's Club wholesalers... meaning, if someone subscribes here, a discount on master skins shouldn't be the only benefit. How about, a 25% discount on OD, WB, ... games and other pay for apps from Stardock?

Make the money worth spending.... saying you need it cause you've devoted time to using Photoshop to dress up the glass effects on page borders and CSS frames?!? Ain't gonna cut it.

There are user who don't Subscribe? Bunch of L's. I love Windblinds and in 2008 when my subscription runs out will have to try all the new stuff for Vista. By then I should have Vista

You are describing ObjectDesktop Network (ODNT) subscription, not Wincustomize subscriptions.

The Wincustomize subscription information page may be a wee bit out of date.  A good description of what a subscriber vs non gets might be a good addition to this discussion/

No need to hyphenate or hide words QD...tell us what you really think.

I think you should buy all of us subscriptions since you seem to have cash floating around not doing anything worth while.

That might be your perception, but its not this businessmans! I've run a P&L since back in the early 70's - I have approximately 40 different subscriptions for a number of computer related items, not including personal ones.

The original question asked what would make me want another subscription? Asking for a positive answer, not if it was desired at all; likely reflecting their intent. I suspect costs are raising after combining two different websites.

$10 here, $10 there, multiple that by a cost here and there - and what you have is acumulating subscrption costs. $10 means something to me, as I measure value. Wincustomize is a nice site filled with creative minds, building skins mostly for fun. I enjoy having skin options; but won't pay for skins while maintaining a subscrption to OD/Windowblinds, the engine that uses those skins.

We'd have to raise the price of subscriptions SUBSTANTIALLY to be able to properly pay Master Skin authors what they'd be owed for all the users downloading their work.  You forget that the artists make money off of each unit out the door, and they get to set their own price.  Every skin we include, we would have to increase the price of a subscription by the amount of money an artist could expect to earn off an individual sale.  You wouldn't be saving anything as an end-user in that scenario.

Instead, we offer a 20% discount to existing WC subscribers.  That's how we can best reward subscribers while remaining fair to Master Skinner artists.

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Morpheus -

I think you're reading too far into last week's poll.  WinCustomize is not aiming to be your source for all news worth knowing.  Heck, we're not even trying to be remotely comprehensive in what we cover.  Most of the news stories posted here are written by me, and I only do a small handful per day anyway.  News on the front-page of WC is just one of the many pieces of the site, and I was just wondering what sorts of coverage would be most appreciated in that space.  WC is a sum of many parts, and I'm working to make each part as entertaining, informative and useful as I can.  If someone looks at the site and sees a part that isn't very good, I want to work on making it better.

News is never going to be a feature of the site that drives subscriptions.  Like you said, there's way too much high-quality news out there that's 100% free.

I'm looking now into new and different ways to enhance the value of the subscription.  There is probably a lot we can be doing to make the subscriber experience better.  This poll is to help us get moving in the right direction.

I appreciate your opinion and view on the necessity of ads on a site.  And believe me when I say I am very careful in considering where an ad is placed, how big it is, and what it does.  I hate sites that flood you with ads and have been working hard to strike the proper balance between providing a good user experience, and bringing in needed income

That's not really fair.  Beyond the visual bits to WC2k7, the core of the site was rewritten.  A site of this size and this complexity requires a lot of time and a good number of very talented coders to develop.  And WinCustomize 2008 has a lot going into it that aren't simply photoshop or CSS tweaks.  It's a pretty complex project already and we've only begun the design meetings (the project plan is a scary-large thing) Subscriptions fund the continued development and maintenance of the site.  Without them, we could have just declared WC2k7 as final victory, and only put minimal effort into keeping it from crashing.  It's stable enough now and everything works like we expect it to.  Everyone wants the site to get better, to expand, to offer more... and that requires funds.

If you don't feel there's suffecient value to a subscription, that's fine.  Beyond providing Master Skins for free (which we can't do, since they're not ours to give away) what would make it a better value to you?

---

As a general note to everyone... this poll and this discussion is in no way an indication that we're going to lock the galleries to subscribers only.  There is far more value in keeping this site open to everyone who wanders by, than we could get out of subscriptions if we locked the content away.  What is free today will likely be free tomorrow.  We are looking for NEW stuff to put on the site, items that aren't part of the package today. 

Also, I'm not trying to imply that people should feel they HAVE to subscribe.  I would very much like each and every one of our millions of annual visitors to subscribe... that would make me very happy and make a huge difference for the site, but I'm not trying to say it is expected or required... just hoped for.  I am trying to find out what would make you WANT to subscribe.

I will also add to the ever growing list of those who would like to see a WIP gallery. I do not skin, however I believe that a WIP gallery would not only help skinners but give new people the confidence to take up skinning & submit work to get help on....skins that may never see the light of day otherwise.
We know that making good tutorials is a time consuming project but WIP's is a much simpler, less time consuming but just as effective way for experienced skinners to pass on their knowledge.
At the same time I believe that a WIP Gallery will also allow a peek into the Wincustomize Community that those who only go to the gallery pages to download will ever see. If we can not reach them on the front pages or Forums then maybe we can reach them there.

It's My Secret

Good points Zoomba...

Working on the basis of "the cat's out of the bag" isn't an easy one. I think with this discussion, bringing up a ton of viewpoints, we can rest assured that deciding to keep what is already free, free...is the only way to start in a new direction.

Now....on to what can make a subscription worth while.

MySecret and those that brought up the WIP gallery are ideas worth investigating. Artist based communities that can be accessed thru a subscription, the subtle discounts I've brought up...not just Master Skins, which by the way I do not endorse giving away for free just because of a user's status. People need to remember, that the Master's skins, do not belong to WinCustomize. They are the sole property of those that created them. Want them? Buy them from the way you are supposed to.

Zoomba, reach into what you already know works for a subscription. You're going to have to make the money worth spending. Yeah, I'm sure millions of those that come by every month would surely make ends meet for WC and Stardock..., and as Brad has asked before, what would you like to see be like other companies? Nothing...most don't make you feel as if your money was well spent!!

If I knew, I could be a large part of a community not yet developed, along with discounted goodies...$20/year would not only be worth it, it wouldn't even phase me to spend it.

But...the challenge is this: The competition is tough (deviantArt for example)...how does WC stand out from the crowd?

My take (a bit late)

1) I like the discount on master skins - that is significant as a benefit for being a subscriber. However, in and of itself, it isn't significant enough for me.

2) WC Browser (the program) - I don't use it. There's no real need for me, and the only way to make it really necessary would be to cripple the website (which I'd hate to see happen).

3) Website features - Well, there's not much WC as a website offers that isn't available elsewhere besides the CONTENT. By which I mean - the personal homepage. It is nice if you're a hardcore member of this website, or if you PRODUCE a lot of your own content here. However, just as a photo gallery, etc.... Those things are free on Flickr and many other sites. To try to sell WC subscriptions based on features that are done better elsewhere for free doesn't seem right.

Really what it comes down to for me - as a purchaser of many stardock products - is that I come to WinCustomize for one thing - content to use WITH my purchased stardock products. Without this website, I probably would still be using uxtheme hacks rather than WB.

In light of that, the only real motivation to buy a subscription to THIS site, as opposed to any other, is if it added value to what I come to THIS site for - which is skins.

How can that be done? Well, as on the vote - more premium skins. Perhaps a useful application, something that MIGHT go into Object Desktop but doesn't have to. For example - maybe a replacement for SysStats (which seems to have been abandoned) that works on Vista, and works with all stardock products to create easily user-extensible objects. I for one, know that I have pretty much quit using ObjectDock since it doesn't seem to play nicely with SysStats anymore. Some kind of premium CONTENT related to the content that actually drives users to WC, will be a huge incentive toward purchasing a subscription.

Don't try to compete with sites such as DeviantArt - there's no need. WC is not a tech/art portal, and it shouldn't try to be. It is a portal for CUSTOMISING WINDOWS - or so the name and product list implies. Subscription features should focus on this.

FWIW - I *did* subscribe to WC this year. I'm probably not going to renew the subscription unless there are substantive changes however. I did it merely to support the site, but at some point, I like to get something tangible for my money.