Beginnings and endings on death row.

The thing is, God doesn't think like us. As Jesus was hanging on the cross, after being brutally punished for doing nothing wrong, as he hung there in pain the last words He uttered were "forgive them, for the know not what they do." Even the offender next to Him, who deserved to be there, he told "today you will be with me in paradise." To my God, sin is sin is sin. To humans, one thing may seem worse than another, but once God forgives, he forgets. In heaven I don't think I'm going to know who died on death row from the little old lady who died in her sleep. The sins get wiped away no matter how "horrendous" they might seem.

I hear what you're saying though, but sometimes it takes extreme cicumstances to bring people to God. Ya know what I mean? It's in our harder times that we search deeply.

Hope you didn't feel as if I was "preaching", simply sharing my viewpoint. Interesting article.

Sarah

I'd say that if someone truly changed, then I could be willing to share Heaven with them, but they'd have to be as good as they were bad. However, I'm positive that most of them are "born again" out of selfish reasons.

No, Sarah, I didn't think you were preaching at all.

I was questioning, I think convicted murderer's sincerity when they accept Christ and profess to be born again.  Are they doing so because they're really sorry for that they have done, or are they doing so because they cannot accept that death is the end?  Would these people, if they were released, return to their former ways once they got out?  Or would their faith continue to be 'a lamp unto' their path?  There's a big difference between actual repentance and saying that you believe because you're being faced with the end of your life.  It's easy to say you have faith when you're in a uber-controlled environment like maximum security prison - in the real world you have to stand on your faith and that's not so easy.  I'm reminded of the parable about seeds and stony ground here.

I was also examining my own lack of compassion.  My faith advises me to try and find compassion for all sentient beings, and whilst I can do it most of the time, I have difficulty finding any compassion whatsoever for some of these people. It's just a gentle reminder, I think, to not get too ahead of myself on the spiritual path and think that I'm further along than I actually am. 

 

 

However, I'm positive that most of them are "born again" out of selfish reasons.

Thats' what I think too. Unfortunately. I think that they're (most of them, anyway)on death row ultimately because of their selfishness, and that they're 'born again' because of what they've been promised or what they think they're going to be getting in the afterlife. "I'm going to a better place" is a common phrase in the last statements (you can read those too) - that and "You're killing an innocent man", and "My death won't solve anything".

"I am amazed at the amount of a) "innocent" men being put to death"

amazed? a more appropriate response would be appalled.

texas inverts blackstone's precept to hold it: 'better that 10 innocent men suffer than one guilty man go free" since the reintroduction of the death penalty , texas has executed 300+ inmates (nearly three times more than any other state and nearly 1/3 of all us executions even tho only 7.5% of the us populations resides in the state.

texas does not provide public defenders; local attorneys are appointed. many do not have capital case trial experience. there are a number of cases in which its people who were ultimately executed in texas were found to have been represented by attorneys who had severe alcohol/drug problems, others by attorneys who slept throughout portions of the proceedings. prior to the recent supreme court ruling barring execution of the mentally retarded, texas executed 6 persons who were adjudged to be mentally retarded.

the most telling fact is this: throughout the us 113 people who were on death row in all states where the death penalty is permitted have been later determined to be totally innocent and have been exonerated. 7 of those were on death row in texas. consider the high percentage of death penalty cases and it seems reasonable to wonder if that number is so low because texas has some secret method for avoiding mistaken convictions.

That was my attempt at sarcasm, kingbee.  If you believed everything that death row inmates said, well then you'd believe there are a lot of innocent people in prison.

I believe that there ARE some innocents in jail.  People who didn't do that which they are accused of and are there because they had a shitty defense attorney or witnesses who lied. I don't believe, however, that every person who protests their innocence is actually so. 

I cannot speak with any authority about the methods the state of Texas uses to try and convict it's criminals because I have limited experience with it.  I will, however, make an effort to educate myself and then I'll come back with a reply.

All I can think of is the scene when Johnny first comes to Shawshank in the movie and asks Andy DuFresnes in the mess hall:

"So, what did you do to get in here, old man?"

"Don't you know, everybody in here is innocent." Alas, in Andy's case it was true.

-- B

I loved the "Shawshank Redemption"... it was a great movie.

My first thought when reading about a 'born again killer' is that it's amazing how all the bravado and menacing attitudes disappear when it's crunch time. They're not such tough men when faced with the needle that will end their life. I wonder if they think, as they're being led into the death chamber, that this is how their victim's must have felt when they realized they were going to die.

Not a lot of reflection time there, but hopefully just enough to make 'em squirm.
........Then again, it is called the 'green mile'..... perhaps it is long enough.

Wreckless.

Some would say that their time on death row awaiting execution is enough time to reflect on what they've done.  I think that until the actuality of the situation hits them, most of them manage to neatly compartmentalize their feelings and don't deal with the reality of it.

Ever see 'Dead Man Walking'?

If i ever get to heaven and i am sharing it with rapists and child molesters then i will ask God to send me to hell.

chances are there will be a populations of each in either place. you might wish to reserve a private suite

chances are there will be a populations of each in either place. you might wish to reserve a private suite

ROFL!!!! Hahaha!

I was also examining my own lack of compassion. My faith advises me to try and find compassion for all sentient beings, and whilst I can do it most of the time, I have difficulty finding any compassion whatsoever for some of these people. It's just a gentle reminder, I think, to not get too ahead of myself on the spiritual path and think that I'm further along than I actually am.

I can not find compassion for people who are sentenced to death or life in prison.(Michigan doesn't have a death penalty....which may explain how Detroit, Grand Rapids and Flint keep having such high crime rates)  If somebody killed one of my family members (such as the case where a boyfriend was killed while trying to save his girlfriend  from being kidnapped) could I forgive that person ever?  No.  I do not think so.  There are certain things that people do that can not be forgiven.  It's all too convenient to say that somebody gets a "second chance".  What about the person that they killed?  They don't get a second chance.  Of course, I have always been a measure for measure type of person.  Let the punishment fit the crime.  It fits right in with "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  I figure if you kill somebody, you actually want to die yourself.  If you don't want to die- don't kill somebody else.  It's that simple.

If you don't want to die- don't kill somebody else. It's that simple.

And those are my feelings on it as well.  I have tried to look at things from a different point of view, and I just can't.

I hear you brother! I think that we have to forgive all right. But forgiveness does NOT mean swinging open the prison door and letting them go their merry way. We forgive to get US off the hook. They still have to be responsible for what they did and pay for it accordingly. The same, I feel, goes for me. God will forgive me for getting drunk, but I still have to have the hangover.

Errr... Sorry. I meant I hear you SISTER!!!

Errr... Sorry. I meant I hear you SISTER!!!

It's ok, Joe.  Happens all the time.

It all comes down to personal responsibility and accountability.  I'm just amused by the amount of convicts who claim they're innocent (despite hard evidence that proves that they're not), and who claim to be 'born again'.  I thought that being 'born again' meant that you were supposed to admit to your sins and transgressions in order for them to be forgiven.  If they had said, "yeah, I did it, and I'm sorry, I deserve to die for what I did" then I'd be a little more convinced of their conversion. 

I'm with you there. If they're truly repentful, then they'll understand why they're being punished.

I dislike the idea of the death penalty based on my own moral reasons. I personally don't believe in killing anyone, period. However, I also think it's a shitty idea to set up an inmate within a system that basically allows the person a room, toilet, free food, and all the other amenities of prison... I don't know what the prison system is like in the States outside of the Hollywood version, but it's pretty damned soft up here, it seems. In Canada, inmates can earn a degree while serving time, can have access to all sorts of pluses like reading material, cigarettes, and remain segrated from a population that would otherwise tear them to pieces for the crimes they have committed.
So what's the answer? I just don't know. But, I'd like to hope that punishment can be doled out that suits the crime without ending in murder as well.

Unfortunately Canadian and US prison systems seem to be remarkably alike. Prisoners are afforded opportunites whilst incarcerated that they wouldn't have gotten had they been law abiding citizens.  A lot of it is done in the name of 'rehabilitation'. It would seem that people have forgotten that prison time is supposed to be a punishment. 

Have you heard of Joe Arapaio, Nicky?  He's the Maricopa county Sherriff in Arizona..he has institued a 'tent city' in the grounds of the county jail.  Inmates are housed in tents, wear pink underwear to stop them from wanting to steal it, eat bologna sandwiches, have to earn their coffee and sugar and don't have TV's (amongst other things).  His reasoning for this treatment?  He says that he doesn't see why criminals should have better living conditions and eat better food than the deployed members of the military, and he wants to make the jail experience one that no-one wants to repeat.  I totally agree with him.  The prisoners aren't too happy about the treatment, complaining about the lack of rehabilitation and educational programs.  Joe's response is to tell them in no uncertain terms that if they don't like it, they shouldn't have broken the law.

 

I'd agree too and say this, if it's rehabilitation that you need, then fine, prove it. Show that you've spent the time aware of your actions and repenting in retrospect. AFTER you've served all the time that you were sentenced to, neverminding the 'time off for good behaviour' crap, and then apply for a program to help your reintegration into society. As far as those who have committed horrendous crimes and will never be set free... no extras at all. See that punishment is doled out, not simply providing housing and food and those extras that many innocent law-abiding people cannot afford outside of the system, until death.

As far as those who have committed horrendous crimes and will never be set free... no extras at all. See that punishment is doled out, not simply providing housing and food and those extras that many innocent law-abiding people cannot afford outside of the system, until death.

I'd like to see that happen, but then we'd have human rights groups screaming about 'inhumane treatment and conditions' in prisons.  It seems to me that the victim in a lot of cases is forgotten, or seen as merely a by-product of the crime....where was the humane treatment when these convicts were murdering their victims?

I saw something this evening that made me madder than I already was.  I was watching a show about maximum security prisons, and this felon was on their complaining about how the corrections officers can "come in my house and ransack the place" - he was referring to his cell as his "house".  WTF?????  It's NOT your "house", it's a cell, and they can come in and toss the place any damn time they please.  You gave away any rights to a "house" when you did that which got you a life sentence. Man, that just rubbed me the wrong way entirely....

It seems to me that the victim in a lot of cases is forgotten, or seen as merely a by-product of the crime

what gets to me is the punishment that so often gets handed out seems so insignificant in comparison to those whom the crime was committed against. For instance, the punishment that pedophiles get often don't even amount to any hard time served, in comparison to the hell a child goes through. Most don't serve any prison time at all for a 'first offense' even though its more likely that it is a 'first time caught' situation.

Most don't serve any prison time at all for a 'first offense' even though its more likely that it is a 'first time caught' situation.

Exactly.  They've prob'ly been doing it for a while..they just got lucky and didn't get busted.

There is, however, a pecking order in prison.  Child molesters and those who prey on the elderly are at the botttom of the heap.

Some of the crimes people are committing...just blows my mind.  Old folks beaten to death for a few pieces of jewelry..there's one case that i was reading about where this guy and his common law wife strangled, stabbed and then decapitated their 3 children, aged 3, 1 and 2 months.  At his sentencing, he requested the death penalty because he "felt that God had forgiven him and he wanted to go to heaven to be with his children."

That exemplifies my point exactly.