To: KFC

I'm not sure what you are looking for from me? False humility?

You're already in possession of enough false humility to supply a dozen megachurches twice over. And as to the quote from luke being overused, I agree. It's frequently used by erzsatz 'Christians' such as yourself to divert attention fom you to whatever sucker is busy falling for the reprehensible nonsense you refer to as your 'faith'. By all means, continue to feel confident in it - just as the builders of the Tower of Babel were confident that they would conquer heaven.

Let me make something clear. If I found you stranded by the roadside I would gladly help you. Despite the occasional ferocity of the language I direct against your version of 'Christianity-for-Dummies' (which I find loathsome, detestable and abhorrent) I bear no animus against you as another human being. I'm English. I have a fondness for baroque insults and a predisposition to violence in language.

But you should not mistake that for personal animosity. I have no reason to harbor ill-will towards you, and no wish to see you come to harm, or to suffer in any way. I find your version of Christian faith to be utterly contemptible and will continue to tell you so whenever the egregious nonsense you post irritates me enough to make me want to confront you - which is more often than you realise.

Other than that, I wish you nothing but the best.

As to my hating God... there's nothing to hate. God is, and has no more interest in my reaction to It than I do in the reaction of a community of ants that I have disturbed. I will not deny that there was a time that I thought I hated God, just as there was a time I thought God hated me. Until I realised just how laughable, how pretentious, how arrogant such thoughts are. Such thoughts are nonsensical. As nonsensical as a virus imagining (if it could) that it is hated by a star. The delusion that God cares for you is a product of nothing more than the arrogant assertion that God must care for you, grounded in the idolatrous belief that you are the center of the universe.

Persist in such imbecilities. As I said, if nothing else it's amusing to watch.

Just a quick comment on style...



This should have been at the end of your post.

Ice Cream Man: "...shall I die of a broken heart now or later."

I shall have to shut up now. There is nothing a Scotsman likes more than breaking an Englishman's heart. Oh, yes, we love to see you in pain. After all, you stole our country. Wait until May, friend.

And as to the quote from luke being overused, I agree. It's frequently used by erzsatz 'Christians' such as yourself to divert attention fom you to whatever sucker is busy falling for the reprehensible nonsense you refer to as your 'faith'.

well I'm not sure what "erzatz" means but I'd like you to show me where I just ONCE used that quote? No, my friend, it's usually used by non Christians like yourself against Christians like myself. And you've already proven my point.

Let me make something clear. If I found you stranded by the roadside I would gladly help you.

I would love to say the same, but I think if I saw you, I'd be very afraid . Very afraid.

I bear no animus against you as another human being. I'm English. I have a fondness for baroque insults and a predisposition to violence in language.

No kidding!!! You're quite good at it, I might add.

The delusion that God cares for you is a product of nothing more than the arrogant assertion that God must care for you, grounded in the idolatrous belief that you are the center of the universe.

You've been listening to the "other side" for way too long. You've got it backward. God is the Center of the Universe, not me, not you not your lovely wife. But I won't bore you with the theology behind it. After all I realize you find this all tiresome.

As I said, if nothing else it's amusing to watch.

well then I'd love to say I'm glad I'm making you laugh, but I see more anger coming from you than a jolly ho ho ho.

This should have been at the end of your post.

ya, that would have been nice, but he just HAD to take one final poke at me before he left.

Lw

I can't answer each and every comment you made LW...but let me ask you this? Did you NOT read the end of my piece when I said this lady came forward and put her arms around the Pastor and prayed with him? Did you not read that? Yes, they are still coming. They appreciate the truth. They want whatever the truth is. Not everyone wants their ears tickled. It can be hard, yes but we need to speak the truth. They are not being foced out by any means. They are welcomed in our church EVEN in their living arrangment but they will be told the truth. They are working it out in their own time. Never have we ever told them they MUST do this or that to stay in our church. We don't want to distance ourselves from them but to draw them closer. We have not lost one person due to a heavy hand. NOT ONE. In fact our church is growing so fast we just ordered another 100 chairs. They get the truth, blatent truth sometimes, but they also know quite well that we are all sinners saved by grace.

Jesus always told the sinners, go and sin no more. He told them the truth. He told them what they were doing was not honoring to him or to them. That's all we do. We have a very good record at restoring marriages in our church. The couples that have come in for counseling...EVERY SINGLE COUPLE.....after sitting down week after week with private counseling with my husband have said their marriages are more solid than ever. And it shows. Their focus was wrong. Every single time. That's what we work on...focus. Some were so bad, it looked like there was no hope. It's great to see these couples today so happy.

I can't say your Pastor did you any favors. You're not in church now are you? You're not leading Godly lives now are you? You're not following the God of your Pastor are you? So exactly how did he help you? Love you to hell? That's a good thing? So you're going to wait until the 11th hour? Well....... what if you die at 10:30? You wish to have a Pastor that will allow you to rebel? And you of all people respect that LW? So you think it best for the sheep to let the shepherd know what best? Well good luck with that.

Oh and to your question. Much of the problems this couple are facing are a result of guilt. They are being counseled to just come to God, leaving all their past behind and follow God and his will for their lives. They will be set free of all that garbage that is now taking them down. When God calls us out of the mud we start to realize it's no longer comfortable staying there. Where once cozy it's now dirty and heavy to be so covered. These two are starting to realize they can start over with a fresh new clean life together and this time do things right. God is dealing with them. It's a war between the spirit and the flesh. I believe if they do things right and invite God to the wedding, there will be no tearing them asunder.

You have a nice day as well LW. No hard feelings.

My wife (JillUser) and I lived together for around 2 years before we got married. 

It is something I'm glad we did.  I won't pretend to know where exactly the bible says people shouldn't live together before getting married. But I couldn't imagine marrying someone I didn't live with either.  I always intended marriage to be for life and like any serious commitment I make, I want to know as much as I can about what I'm getting into. 

Having been married now about 13 years, I think things worked out well and I think our marital success has largely come from discussing and agreeing on the kind of life we wanted to live before marriage. 

If someone had told me I shouldn't be living with my fiancee before we had gotten married, I would not have taken them seriously. I also would have considered their attempt to tell me how to live highly disrespectful. 

But I do understand why religious people do the things they do.  They believe that faith in Jesus Christ paves the way for eternal salvation after death. And that anyone who has true faith in Jesus would follow his teachings.  But, I would argue there's considerable disagreement over what those teachings are. 

And of course, there's those of us who don't have that faith.  I think when we die we're dead and that's the end of it.  I wish I had faith in an after life. But I don't.  So I try to make the most of my time on this Earth to live a good, moral, and productive life while it lasts.

I do so love these religion threads. They're so amusing.

Exactly. And that's why it didn't bother you and Jill to live together. It would have or should have if you were living your life for Christ. When we become Christians, we die to self and live for Christ. From the sounds of it, you and Jill are equally yoked.

Actually at the office (I work with two brothers) Jeff mentioned that there was a poll that said those that lived together before marriage had better marriages than those who didn't. Of course I protested wondering what poll was that? The other brother Scott also protested. He's not a Christian btw. He said, before I could even get my point across, that all one has to do is compare the marriages of today to those of yesteryear when living together was a huge sin. There's no comparison. Just look around. How many have marriages now that make it to 13 years never mind 25?

I have a strong Christian friend who has a tux shop. She said the next couple that comes into her shop off the street that ARE NOT living together she will give a free wedding to. Every single couple she meets have the same address. At our church the kids are NOT living together because it's not expected of them. We've had five marriages lately, and three of the five couples have NOT even engaged in sex before marriage, forget about living together.

As Christians, we feel we are representing God. By doing things we believe dishonors him, we feel it deep in our soul and it convicts us. That's because Christ lives in us. It doesn't mean we don't mess up from time to time but when we do we are most miserable. Remember, he said we are to be a light to a dark world. A light does not hide under the bed he said.

People sometimes think we're just shoving our beliefs down their throats when all we're trying to do is shed some light. Well I have to admit, sometimes this light irritates....especially for those who like being in the dark. It was the same for all of us at one time or another. Sometimes I'm still in the dark about things and I get the light of another believer shed on me. I have a choice, welcome it, or pull the covers over my head.

It's hard to leave our cozy bed and face the bright morning. It's a cold dark world, believe me, I feel it all the time.....but it's not going to make me stop shedding my light. It's not my will, but his that compells me to do what I do.

Actually I plan on writing about this subject soon.....so Mason since you love religion threads, you'll love this one!!

PS Brad, I applaud your commitment. That's what it's all about. I felt the same way and we've been married 25 years. If I remember right, you still have a very young family, please beware, you've not gone thru the hardest part yet. I've seen more than one set of teens tear a husband and wife apart. It's sounds like you've had a solid start.... just stay solid at the top and the kids will never get between you and Jill.

I'm not going to argue with you LW. I'm going to do what God has called me to do and you just keep doing whatever convicts you as well. Obviously, you have your own truth, so you're all set.

So we really don't have anything else to discuss.

I wish you a very happy Resurrection Sunday.

to: KFC



Hell is what you make it. And if anyone's 'loved her to hell' it's me, not dear old Pastor Bob, who is a good man and a Christian I'm willing to tolerate.

So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear,
Farewell remorse; all good to me is lost.
Evil, be thou my good.

John Milton, Paradise Lost.

To which I will add two more lines of my own -

Heaven be thou my hell,
and hell, heaven.

It's about nothing more than desire and will, all of it. Just like me, KFC, the day you die you'll discover exactly what it is you've wanted. And even to you, pious little godbotherer that you are, it shall be given with both hands open.

Awww, how sweet.

I think that this is an all too common experiece. I too had the same thing. I've been looking around for the right church. I went to a methodist church recently and pretty much experienced this. At the beginning of the service people got up and greeted each other, any while several people stopped to shake my hand, no one asked me if I was new. After the service no one talked to me. Even when I shook the pastor's hand he didn't seem interested.

Now I'm at a baptist church. Of all the denominations I never figured this is where I'd be the most comfortable. Of course, I'd never been to a baptist service, but I know all about the baptist jokes and the girl in HS who always wore skirts and carried her bible every where. But this church feels like a church should feel. People came up and greeted me as soon as I walked in. Even now many will call me over to talk with them and introduce themselves. I also always get a nice greeting from the Pastor and his wife. It's the type of church family that I've been looking for.

But the pastor does tell us exactly what we should and shouldn't be doing. He makes it very clear what's acceptible and what's not. He doesn't even like the teenagers to hold hands (which I don't necessarily agree with). But he does hold them up to high standards. Just last week after the Sunday evening service he called out one of the teenager to explain to him that his behavior during the service was unacceptable. I like that he hold his congregation accountable for their actions.

That seems too over the top. If you have a problem with the kid or his action, talk to him in private about it - not in front of anybody. There's a difference between trying to help and "calling to repentance". I know that's the phrase the scriptures use, but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it - and I think that's the exact wrong way to do it. It's the way to drive that kid right out the doors and never back.

QOD

You just described my church exactly. Are you in my congregation? Who knows, maybe you are...wouldn't that be a riot? We too are a family. After church it's almost like nobody wants to leave. We all hang around talking so long. We have one older lady who makes donunts for us every week....homemade. We put a big pot of coffee on and people hang out for about an hour or so before heading off. We encourage each other to keep our eyes open for the new face that walks in the door. We actually had one person say, we are TOO friendly and almost scared them off. But they stay in spite of that. Nobody sneaks in and out.

I think that's why our church is growing...the accountability, the truth is what people want. They are hungry for the truth. People have been called into the Pastor's office for accountability from time to time. It happens. It always seems to work out well tho. Kiss and makeup is usually the consequence for any squabbles among the people. We have only one time asked somebody to leave, for the protection of the church. Drugs and adultery were involved and this person was not interested in changing. He was asked to leave. If he gives up his lifestyle that would be harmful to the church, he's more than welcome to come back. It's called church discipline and it works. Like any family, it needs to be protected.



I absolutely agree with you SC...imagine that!! But maybe she meant that? Maybe she saw the Pastor take him aside? Sometimes we do that, and sometimes a person may get called into to visit the Pastor later in the week after our Pastor thinks about it first. Our Pastor is a thinker, not rash to rush into any decision.

well then straighten up and fly right.....*kicks EOIC in the pants*




well....I say it like this.

For believers this world will be the ONLY hell they will ever know.
For Unbelievers this world will be the ONLY heaven they will ever know.

It's a no brainer to me. But yes, it's your decision. Is it working for ya?

Jill, I am not a preacher or anything remotely similar. so i will just tell you how i look at things.

it is very simple really if you keep an open mind. We and this Universe around us did not just exist. our human mind can not justify that through any logical or scientific principle. nothing we see and learn in this universe "just exist".

so it is either we and our universe were Created or we and our universe just appeared out of no where.

First you have to accept either one. you cant be on the fence.

after you make your "educated choice"then it becomes easy.

if you take the choice that we are just here, then there is no GOD and you dont have to worry about what He say or oredered. OR

You can take the choice that we were created by a higher being, we call God. and if that is the case, then we really have to think hard and carefully before we say, He created us BUT we can do what we wish.

as you sure know, our choice has consequences. That is the free-will part of this life.

very few philosophers or physicists can really say that we just existed out of no where and going to disappear to no where again. nothing they see in this universe works that way, why should it just work once and never again?

you see what i mean.

think that way and make your choice based on pure comonsense and logic. at the end you will find HIM there.

the problem for us is this: once we admit that He exists, then we really cant argue with Him. He is our Creator. Can you imagine something we humans make (not create) arguing back to us and defying our desires and command? what if your car refused to take you where you direct it? you certainly will destroy it, wouldn't you?

if that example bothers you, just keep in mind that the difference in power, status and ability between us and a car is much much much less than between us and our creator. it really is. we didnt create anything in a car, we just made things from an existing things. but He created us and the universe and much much more from nothing.

and if the car can understand who made it, we can understand who made us. so going there is not logical at all.

just make your choice from your heart and brain and after that you will be satisfied. It is not what any book says. it is who wrote the book. it just doesnt make sense to accept that He created us, then argue aginst his ordered. that is not logical. you cant have it both ways. if you admit He exists, then you must accept his authority. His books explain what He wants and how He deals with us and what His authority is.

I can believe in God without being Christian. There is nothing illogical about it. There are plenty of other religions that believe in God but don't believe that he wrote the Bible as a guide to how we must serve him. I can believe that my creator created the Earth and everything on it, set everything in motion and left us to play things out. I can believe that he doesn't have a constant hand in everything that happens. I can also believe that our time here is all he is giving us so we better make the most of it.

I don't believe in doing "anything I want" because I do believe in treating others as I would like to be treated. Contrary to what many believe, you can be a moral person without being christian.

Really?

I would love to read your arguement against it. You think We know about the nature of our creator more than the Car knows about its maker?

As i said, you cant have it both ways.It is a two-step process.

First, see if you believe in His existance or not.

If you do, then you really cant believe in whatever ideas or principles you like, rather, you search for His True Words and the principles they imply.

I know and I realize that finding His True Words are not easy or simple. But they exist. And it is worth the effort to look for them.

As a start there are few criteria that all theologians agree on regarding Him: being JUST, Logical and CONSISTENT. If you use that as a guide you will be able to separate His words from those injected in some of His books by the people who wrote them. Most of the confusion you see is caused by those who wrote what they thought was His True Words years and years after the True words were revealed. humans forget and misunderstand and have biases. that is the root of the confusion and misunderstanding we see clearly in this thread.

just one caution regarding those three criteria above. You must be unbiased and logical and consisten yourself to be able to judge whether what you read passes that test or not. you cant be choosy and pick what you like and discard what you dont like. let the test determine what is a true word and what is not.

and look and search in all of his books. Like you said the Bible is not the only Book of God.

No, LW,

I said I will not argue with you. What does it profit? If you want to have a discussion, that's diff. I'm all for that. But that's not what you want. You want me to validate you as a Godly person and I cannot do that. Oh, you may be a good person according to wordly standards, I'm not arguing that. I can only go by your own words here on JU. I do not see God in you when I read your writings or retorts to others. My God is the God of scripture. My God is the one who walked this earth, left us with his message and promised to return. Your God is not. So like I said before, you have your truth and I have HIS. It's not mine, it's HIS. I'm just following my convictions and you seem to have no room for that.

You have your own truth, so be it. I have not been unkind to you. I have tolerated your sharp tongue for over a year. Not once have you said one kind thing to me LW. So you keep practicing your "godly" life.

Remember it's not what goes into a man that defiles him, it's what comes out. I wish you the best. I always have. Like I've said before, no hard feelings, because in the end it's not between me and you, but between you and God anyway.

There's something dark and sinister here. I can feel it. I've felt it before, too. It's something so wrong and so intolerant and so unrighteous and so missing the point of everything I've ever come to see and understand it's almost palatable.

I literally feel nauseous.

KFC POSTS: A man and woman coming together in marriage is a wonderful and sacred thing to God. .......He instituted marriage right from the beginning, one man for one woman.

LITTLE WHIP POSTS: Oh really?
Just how many wives was it that David had? And how many did Solomon keep? And, if the stories are to be believed, God seemed to have no problem with either case. But perhaps you'll tell me that the one man-one woman thing only applies to the NT dispensation? That God chose to let the poor benighted Israelites persist in the darkness of their polygamous sin until the Light of Christ was revealed?

The phrase 'And they two shall become one flesh' (in relation to marriage) does not refer to the ceremony of marriage, which is instituted of man and not God. It refers instead to the spiritual reality involved in the physical act of sexual congress. Each time we engage in the sexual act we do indeed become one flesh. And each time we part from a sexual partner we deplete the wholeness of the union we enter into. So that, depending upon the number of unsanctified relationships we enter into we progressively deplete the integrity of our own spirit and deny the fundamental truth of scripture as it depicts the spiritual reality of our lives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I read it, Little Whip, that which you cited speaks to the “use” of marriage, that is, to the conjugal union within Marriage and not to Marriage itself and when it was instituted.


Marriage, is as KFC said, “from the beginning”, between one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve) in the Garden of Paradise. Marriage was preordained by God who established it at the climax of Creation. God is the Author of authentic Marriage not man. "In the beginning", the vocation to Marriage was first a natural union that came from the hand of the Creator. Although the dignity and greatness of the institution of Marriage is not the same everywhere, some sense of the matrimonial natural union exists in all cultures and has from the beginning of time.

The anthropological truth of the natural contract of Marriage is presented in Sacred Scripture. In Genesis there are 2 accounts of the institution of Marriage and each indicates an element of the meaning of Marriage. Marriage in this sense has permanent characteristics and both themes are joined throughout the history of Marriage proceeding from Adam through the Patriarchs to the present. Scripture describes the covenant of Marriage to the covenant of God with Israel and the Christ raising it to the efficacy of a sacrament and a symbol of His own union with the Church Eph. 5:30-31.

The first account of Marriage in Genesis 1:27-28 is not a precept as some would have it for God had said the same words to the fishes and birds V.22, who were incapable of receiving a precept, but a blessing rendering them fruitful.

“And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it , and rule over the fishes of the sea and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.”

The second account 2:20-25 affirms that man and woman were created for one another.

“And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field; but for Adam there was not a helper like himself. 21 Then the Lord cast a deep sleep upon Adam; and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs and filled up flesh for it. 22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman; and brought her to Adam. 23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. 24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE; and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked ; to wit, Adam and his WIFE, and were not ashamed.”
These words according to the authority of our Lord Himself, and as we read in St.Matt.19:6, prove the divine institution of Matrimony.

First, God formed Eve out of Adam’s rib because all mankind , even Eve, was to proceed from Adam. And secondly, because husband and wife were to belong to one another in union, one heart, one soul and one flesh by their love. Scripture affirms God gave man the woman, ‘flesh of his flesh’, woman was to be man’s nearest in all things. “One flesh” signifies God’s plan for them is an unbreakable union. “Union” takes place by virtue of God who created them male and female and gives them the power to unite those natural and complimentary dimensions of their male and female persons.

When God brought Eve to Adam and pronounced His blessing upon them, He instituted the sacred character of Marriage. In the Church, the sacred character of Marriage is inherent in the free will covenantal bond of one man and one woman for life that God has wrought in them. Christ told the Pharisees who tempted Him asking about the lawfulness of divorce, “Have ye not read that He who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And He said: now For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE and they two shall be in one flesh.” St.Matt. 19:4-6.

We don’t know for Sacred Scripture doesn’t tell us whether or not Adam and Eve had children or how much time went by before the Fall (when Adam and Eve chose themselves over God and disobeyed His command). Sacred Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of Original Sin as a result from their break with God. They were ashamed of their nakedness, their souls lost original grace and innocence, and the incurrence of the evil of sin was applied to all of mankind. Before the Fall, Eve was equal to yet subject to Adam as a wife must always be to her husband, but this subjection always implied good order and not any hardship or difficulty whatsoever.

After the Fall, original justice was destroyed and it was different for the entire world. There was now a rupture in the original communion between man and woman and the beautiful vocation of Marriage. God’s blessing to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work. Marriage was under the regime of sin and the marital relationship became marred by concupiscence. Subjection became servitude and liable to all sorts of tensions, discord, conflicts and abuses. Women, especially among pagans, became degraded and cruelly treated.

God’s ancient design of faithful monogamy was not preserved and fell from its original honor and purity.
Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of grace that God in His Infinite Mercy never refuses them Gen3:21. Without this help, man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them ‘in the beginning’.
In His mercy, God hasn’t forsaken sinful man. The punishments consequent upon sin...also embody remedies that limit the damaging effects of sin. Marriage, even after the Fall, helps overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit’s of one’s own pleasure, and to open oneself to another, to mutual aid and self-giving.

Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of Marriage developed under the pedagogy of the Old Law. In the OT, the polygamy of the ancient Patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord’s words, it still carries traces of man’s ‘hardness of heart’ which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives. St.Matt.19:8; Deut. 24:1. While the wife was subject to her husband, she was no mere chattel, as with the pagans.

Nevertheless, exclusive attachment was prized in the OT by some of those who believed in God. Seeing God’s covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love (God wedded Israel in the desert), the prophets prepared the Chosen People’s conscience for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of Marriage. Hos.1-3; Isa.54; 62; Jer.2-3:31; Ezek.16;23; Mal. 2:13-17. The Books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of Marriage and to the fidelity and tenderness of spouses. Tradition has always seen in the Song of Solomon a unique expression of human love, insofar as it is a reflection of God’s love--a love “strong as death” that ‘many waters cannot quench”. Song 8:6-7.

Yes, some of the ancient Patriarchs married several wives. Yet, Christ Our Lord, has clearly shown that polygamy is not in keeping with the nature of Matrimony. St.Matt.19:5-6; St.Mark 10:11-12.
The nuptial covenant between God and His people Israel had prepared the way for the new and everlasting covenant in which the Son of God, by becoming Incarnate and giving His life, has united to Himself in a certain way all mankind saved by Him, thus preparing for “the wedding feast of the Lamb.” Rev. 19:7-9.

To note the importance of Marriage, on the threshold of His public life, Christ performs His first sign during the wedding feast at Cana. Christ’s first miracle was a wedding present for the bride and groom through the intercession of His mother, Mary. The wedding feast marks a difinitive change in His life just as it does in the life of the man and woman.

In His preaching, He unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of a man and a woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning. The matrimonial union of a man and a woman is indissoluble. God Himself has determined it: “Therefore, now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” St.Matt.19:6.

The unequivocal insistence on the indissolubility of the marriage bond may have left some perplexed and could seem to be a demand impossible to realize. However, Jesus has not placed on spouses a burden impossible to bear, or too heavy. St.Mark 8:34; St.Matt. 11:29-30. By coming to restore the original order of Creation disturbed by sin, He Himself gives the strength and grace to live Marriage in the New Covenant of grace in the reign of God. It is by following Christ, by renouncing themselves, and by taking up their crosses that spouses will be able to “receive” the original meaning of Marriage and live it with the help of Christ. St.Matt. 19:11. The grace of Christian Marriage is a fruit of Christ’s Cross, the source of all Christian life.

This is the point at which Marriage becomes a sacrament in the New Covenant as noted by St.Paul to the Ephesians. “Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord. 23 Becasue the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the savior of his body. 24 Therefore, as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, as also Christ does the Church: 30 Because we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 31 ‘For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be two in one flesh.’ 32 This is a great mystery; but I speak in Christ and the Church. Eph. 5: 22-32.


Marriage then is a sacrament between the baptized. It is a covenant between a man and a woman, committing them to live with each other in a bond of married love whose charter was established by God. This covenant is a symbol of the underlying covenant love established by Christ with His Church in the Paschal mystery. It is an encounter with Christ which makes effective the graces it signifies, the graces needed to make human love enduring, faithful and fruitful, and so a suitable image of the love between Christ and His Church.

I agree with this. This is true and it's taught in Christianity that some follow Christ and some don't. There were some in scripture even that believed in God but not in Christ. To be a Christian, one must be willing to follow Christ.

A Christian believes that Christ was God, because that's what he taught. But not all believe that. That's why he said "who do you say that I am?" For a Christian it all comes down to that question.

And that's where faith comes in, not logic. Just to be clear to those like Thinkaloud, logic only gets you so far with religion. Faith is the base. You build your beliefs on a foundation of faith not logic. I am truly happy for those of you our there who have strong faith in your religion. It's a security that those without faith don't have.

KFC, I appreciate your unbiased, unjudgemental response. I'm sure my lack of faith drives christians crazy with the urge to show me the light. If God wants me to see "the truth" he's going to have to do it on his own. No person is going to be able to point to written word and show me anything I haven't already thought about. I haven't taken this lightly.

Claiming that my conclusion is "illogical" won't gain any ground either. If you have faith then you will find things to support it. If you don't, there is no logic that is out there to prove anything about any religion. It is all about questions that each of us need to answer for ourselves and those answers aren't a matter of true or false because noone can prove anything about God or what happens when we die.

I know you haven't. I can tell you have put alot of thought into this. I like what you said here. If God wants to show you the truth it is he who will show it to you. That is absolutely true. You're not as far off as you may think you are. I can only lead you to him, he does the rest. It's not even you, believe it or not. It's him. I can't open anyone's eyes. All I can do is scatter the seed, throw it out. It's he who prepares the soil of the heart and waters it.

The only thing I would suggest is to search it out, test the claims and "pray" about it. God says those that search for him will find him. But basically that means, he's already done some work on their hearts to even do this. I have a hunch, he could possibly be doing a work in you even now. Time will tell....just continue to keep your eyes and ears open.