Believers Question #3

OK, I'll bite!

First, what is your premise for the question. I.E., why are you asking, what are you trying to find out and in what way does this affects you personally?

I'm asking because I can't see what it really has to do with life in general unless someone follows a restricted religious belief. It's also a personal thing to a lot of people, therefore I wondered at the premise for the question?

You might delete me since I didn't really respond with a religious comment.....

forever,

The question comes down to Laws in the Old Testement. Which ones do believers follow and why? Which ones should I believe and why?

This was a law and many believe that Jesus did not take away the laws of the OT so, how do we know which ones to follow?

Specifically I ask about this one because I am a woman and don't understand why believers don't follow it, or if there's a reason not to follow i.e. was it nullified in some way further in the Bible?

I would have thought that it would be logical why believers do not follow such laws. Laws like this were written down to be followed because A) hygiene standards were not advanced in those days, and , women were also regarded as inferior. Today, with its hectic lifestyle, the equality of women, high medical standards and the ease with which women can remain "Clean", comfortable and unsullied by the discomfort, negate any old-fashioned approach.

I find this question strange but will go along with it.

Although I can't speak for others, (and I'm not trying to) I would say people will follow what their beliefs dictates. Whatever the religion they follow dictates. And so would/should you.

That decision would be a personal one, to me anyway!




I don't know the religious response to it, especially since I'm not a clergy or otherwise deeply involved to quote specifics of religious practice. Although I do know what my husband told me that he learned from some of the Jewish people who used to frequent his cab at the time when he was a driver in NY. There habits are different and they do follow their doctrine to the letter.


However, from my own personal pov, I don't 'ban' myself away from everyone, I do follow methods that are a must for me on a personal hygiene level, that's a given. Plus I eat lots of chocolate!  

I'd like to echo FS on your other thread. While needless arguing really serves no purpose a good friendly debate can help us. Reasoning together has it's benefits. We can learn from one another as iron sharpens iron.

On the given topic here we must remember who this was written to. It was written at a particular time to a particular group of people. That's very important in exegeting scripture. If you read Acts 15 you can see that clearly as the new Christians (Gentiles) started to come into the faith. The Gentiles and now new Christians were not bound by the OT laws and rites given to the Jewish people.

While I don't have an answer for this (why so unclean) without going into some research I agree with adnauseam on this as well. There is a book out called the "Red Tent" although I've never read it, it gives a Jewish perspective on what was done during those days.

Some believe this is a reminder of the fall of man as recorded in Genesis. The penalty was death.

Also it brings us to the plight of the woman with the issue of blood who came to Christ for healing (Luke 8:43-48). The Law had shut her out from contact with others. She was looked down upon and shut out of society. The grace of our Lord healed and restored her. The OT always points to Christ and here we see that Jesus is the fountain for the our cleansing.

Hope this helps.

The whole of Leviticus chapter 15 deals with legal purity which were instituted by God in order to give the people a horror of carnal impurities. The beginning of the chapter deals with men spilling their seed which God forbids. The 7 day period of the woman is a time that she is to refrain from sexual relations.

Ever hear the saying "cleanliness is next to Godliness"? Being pure was then and still is required for people truly dedicated to the Lord God. Objective uncleanlessness to both persons and things arose from eating certain animals, childbirth, skin diseases, sexual impurities and diseases and even taking care not to have mildew. These categories underscored the necessity of integrity in every aspect of life. Purification rites were demanded to remedy uncleaness. The Blessed Virgin after giving birth to Jesus underwent purification to fulfil the prescriptions of the Law of Moses. St.Luke 2:22.

This was all on a personal level, however there were also similiar rites applicable to the sinful uncleanness of entire communities and for that they had the Day of Atonement as described in Chapter 16.

Reasoning together has it's benefits. We can learn from one another as iron sharpens iron.

I see your point KFC and it's a good one. I just don't want my search for faith to become so heated that I'm completely turned off to christianity all together. Maybe it's wrong of me to lump everyone together, but I see the point of faith and 'religion' as building people up and learning, rather than proving why 'I'm right and you're wrong.' Just like you wrote - iron on iron - meaning that we're essentially the same and we should help eachother.

So, yes, reasoning together as you state it is very benefitial, debating and/or argueing is not (at least not for me).

lulapilgrim,

You've opened up the meaning of the entire chapter. So what about masterbation? Yes or no? Is it just and old cleanliness thing too? I'm just confused on what applies today and what doesn't and why.

If you are going by God's will, the short answer is no. Genesis 38:9-10 tells us that GOd killed Onan after spilling his seed "becasue he did a detestable thing."



QUESTION OF THE DAY POSTS: Is it just and old cleanliness thing too? I'm just confused on what applies today and what doesn't and why.


God's prohibition of masturbation applies to today.
God created us and gave us the gift of our sexual powers. He wills that we prize them as a sacred gift by which we share with him the the creation to life (sexual act only open to life)and that we revere our sexuality as a means of growing in love and sanctity.

According to the constant and clear teaching of the Catholic Church from principles found in Scripture, masturbation is a serious sin that will keep one from entering heaven. 1Cor. 6:10. Masturbation is an act of self-abuse that makes one self-centered and builds up barriers to the virtue of love of God and fellow man.

The reasoning for such a serious prohibition is that the sexual function is meant by God to serve primarily for the begetting of children. Masturbation would be therefore, an offense against the divinely established purpose of our sexual powers, a gift from God.

The very opposite to God's viewpoint is a pagan attitude of self-love, self-desires, self-fulfillment, etc.

, women were also regarded as inferior. Today, with its hectic lifestyle, the equality of women, high medical standards and the ease with which women can remain "Clean", comfortable and unsullied by the discomfort, negate any old-fashioned approach.

But what else in the Bible ends up being "old-fashioned?"

On the given topic here we must remember who this was written to. It was written at a particular time to a particular group of people. That's very important in exegeting scripture. If you read Acts 15 you can see that clearly as the new Christians (Gentiles) started to come into the faith. The Gentiles and now new Christians were not bound by the OT laws and rites given to the Jewish people.

So we as "new" Christians are not bound by the OT laws?

The 7 day period of the woman is a time that she is to refrain from sexual relations.

Yep, I understand that part, but it also says: Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. This is not just about sexual relations.

1Cor. 6:10. Masturbation is an act of self-abuse that makes one self-centered and builds up barriers to the virtue of love of God and fellow man.

lulapilgrim, maybe you could give me the KJV version of this passage. My NIV traslation appears to be specifically talking about prostitution as being sexual immorality, but I don't see masturbation or 'spilling seed'

The reasoning for such a serious prohibition is that the sexual function is meant by God to serve primarily for the begetting of children. Masturbation would be therefore, an offense against the divinely established purpose of our sexual powers, a gift from God.

So is it also Catholic teaching that sex outside of baby making is a sin too? When women are unable or become too old to bear children do Catholics stop having sex?

First I have to ask. Did you read Acts Chap 15? I think that helps clear up alot.

The NT is the New Covenant. There are many covenants in scripture. The Noahadic Covenant, The Abrahamic Covenant, The Mosaic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. Each Covenant not so much replaced the Older one but added to it and each got better and better.

In Colossians 2:16-17 it says:

"let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of a holyday or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ."

Those things in the OT were a shadow of Christ. He fulfilled those things in the NT, he was the real thing.



hahahahah I can hardly wait to hear the answer to this one. Lula...where are you?

Those things in the OT were a shadow of Christ. He fulfilled those things in the NT, he was the real thing.

I've read Acts Chap 15 a few times now. I guess I'm one of those Gentiles that wants to know what are the right things to be done. So KFC, are you saying that the nitpicking of rules isn't very important? Being in/of Christ is the important thing, right?

I understand that there are obvious things from the OT that are good to follow whether or not they are old-fashioned (like the 10 commandments), but I just question all the other things that are so strongly held on to.

In my opinion there's nothing religious about it. Humans are one of the few animals that are continually "in heat". It's pretty odd when you think about it...every other animal has a season where they go through all this hooflah. All it is is a breakdown of an unfertilized egg and all the stuff that was ready to nurture it...I really don't see how there's any religious significance at all, however in some tribal cultures, it is viewed as evil to men and women are sent to a special place until they're done.

I just know not to mess with a woman during that uneasy time and calling her unclean will make a man die.

~Zoo

  

The New and everlasting covenant of Christianity is a completion (fulfillment) of the Old Law or covenant. So, yes, we are still bound by the Ten Commandments revealed by God to His people through Moses. Those Commandments were the essential Law for the Israelites and they continue to be such for the early Church and remain so for Catholics today. Actually, they'll remain valid until the end of time.

Both the Sixth and Ninth Commandments deal with immorality and that's where the act of masturbation is condemned. All human beings of their very nature (as made in the image and likeness of God) are required to be chaste in their own thoughts, words and actions and to respect the bodily integrity of others. Explicitly condemned are acts of lust, fornication, rape, pornography, prostitituion, masturbation, homosexuality, adultery, incest, polygamy and divorce.

Explicitly condemned are acts of lust, fornication, rape, pornography, prostitituion, masturbation, homosexuality, adultery, incest, polygamy and divorce.

Could you give me the KJV of the sixth and ninth commandments? I can't see where many of these are "explicitly" condemend. (Note: I'm not argueing that they aren't, I just want to know where your info comes from - hey, you never know, I might convert to catholocism - and I am being serious)

Is there a difference between adultry and fornication? Just wondering because my MW dictionary defines them synonymously.

Chapter 6 tells us of sins that exclude from the kingdom of heaven and especially of the evil of fornication. My Douay Rheims has 1Cor.6:9-10 as "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of GOd."

MY NAB has it "Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of GOd? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of GOd."

Masturbation is against the practice of purity and the virtue of chastity. The positive part of the precept of the 6th and 9th Commandments and of St.Paul's exhortation is for the faithful to be taught to earnestly cultivate chastity with all care, to cleanse themselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear (love)of GOd. 2Cor.8:1

The Catechism of the CC also includes "every species of immodesty and impurity" in the prohibition of adultery as per the 6th Commandment in the OT and in 1Cor.6:9-10 in the NT.

I think a good rule of thumb when asking questions that have to do with sexual morality is to ask what would God have me do according to the gold standards He has given us in the Ten Commandments. Remember that everything that He has given us is for our Good.

Catholicism teaches that we are to only use the natural sex act within marriage and intercourse is to be always open to life. No exceptions. It is a sin for Catholics to use artificial birth control or contraception. Why? Because that compromises the basic principle that our sexual facilities are to be used only in a way that is designed and planned by God. We become idolaters and love ourselves saying we no longer accept the inherent moral goodness of procreation within marriage.

Everyone, no matter what his station in life or age, who is not married, must practice chastity.

Women who pass into their menopausal years can have all the sexual intercourse they want as long as it's with their lawful husband. This is a continuation of God's plan for us as we are not separating the life dimension during marital sexual intercourse. God has done that by the natural law. Very wonderful indeed.

Yes, we have freedom in Christ. But as Christians we don't take advantage of that either. In other words we don't say, well since I'm saved and in Christ I'm free to commit sin at will.

The believer who has died with Christ is released from bondage to the law and is free to experience the abundant life of Christ. The law arouses sin in me. The book of Romans would be a good read on all this. When Paul came to understand the true meaning of the law, he realized that he was a sinner and worthy of death. The law is fundamentally good but the result of the law is to bring into the open the power of sin. The law exposes our sin. The law was like a mirror. We could see how dirty we were when we held it up, but it couldn't cleanse us. We needed to move away from that mirror to be cleansed. When Christ came, he cleansed us once and for all.

Our past, present and future sins were nailed to the cross and we were cleansed by the blood of the lamb. When Jesus washed the disciples feet he said "he that is bathed need not wash except to wash his feet, but is clean every bit and you are clean, but not all (Judas)." We are already washed and clean and need only to come to him to wash our feet because we walk in a sinful world and it's hard not to get our feet dirty.

Yes, but and this is a big but.....we must not overlook the very next verse that says:

"And such were some of you: but you were washed, you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the of the Lord Jesus........"

We all sin. We all make mistakes. This section was a warning against moral laxity. Paul did not want Christianity confused with the sects that permitted such things. People whose lifestyles exhibit the fruit of wickedness show they are unsaved and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who walk away from it are cleansed and therefore will inherit the kingdom of God.

Later Paul says "all things are lawful" (v12) Apparently some of the Corinthians were trying to use their Christian freedom to justify their sins. Paul here is insisting that Christian liberty is limited by two considerations; Is the practice helpful and will it enslave?

The Corinthians were a mess. They were taking advantage of their freedom in Christ. They were celebrating a bit too much in their freedom from the OT law. Yes we're set free but not free to sin at will. We are set free and should be walking away from those sins that will hold us down.

Chapter 6 tells us of sins that exclude from the kingdom of heaven and especially of the evil of fornication. My Douay Rheims has 1Cor.6:9-10 as

Iulapilgrim, it would help me a great deal if you would incorporate these additional materials when helping to aswer my question. Otherwise, in my unlearned state I'm likely to get lost in your teaching. (ex. explicitness of Ten Commandments)

Even if you don't think of it until later, please post. It will still help me to learn.

Thank you for bearing with me. I appreciate all that you feed me and am very hungry

One of the first things one has to inderstand about the 10 Commandments is that they were not 10 suggestions. They are God's divine will. It is important to understand them in light of the OT in which they were given and then in the NT and how our Lord lived and taught the Commandments setting an example of total surrender to the Divine Will. For Jesus as a man it was always first about His Heavenly Fahter's will. I know there are popular arguments that Jesus supposedly repudiated the Ten when He established His new law of love. This isn't so. Christ lived the Ten in the highest degree possible and we who wish and claim to follow Him must remember that Christian sanctity is only possible when we follow the example of Jesus in living the Commandments.

The Sixth Commandment of Almighty God is "thou shalt not commit adultery". Adultery like fornication is a sin against chastity. Adultery is a defilement of one's own or another's marriage bed. Fornicaton is the sexual act between unmarried persons.

One of the best explanations of the Ten Commandments comes from Father Hardon, a priest who died about 5 years ago. He said of the Sixth Commandment, "that Christ elevated the original Commandment given to Moses to heights that the Jews could scarcely comprehend. Not only does it forbid adultery, externally, but every type of impure thought or action. The new Lawgiver now demanded a response immeasurably higher: the internal mastery of passions. Fr.Hardon informs that Jesus identified adultery as a sin agasint charity and thereby changed the whole focus of the virtue which the Sixth and Ninth Commandments had previously identified.

Now it was no longer a question of justice, of keeping one's hand, so to speak, off an other and not to covet; but Jesus relates the Sixth and the Ninth to the practice of charity. The Christian understanding of chastity is the virtue of charity, in which the object of the virtue is really a form of self-sacrifice. This needs saying: Unless Christians practice total internal chastity, they will lose Christ and His grace.

As Catholic tradition was to gradually unfold, the meaning of chastity evolved to a form of temperance with regard to sexual pleasure. A chaste person, by Christians standards, is one who tempers, controls and restrains his desires for sexual pleasure by not having the experience except within the Divinely ordained Sacrament of marriage--within these bounds it is a sacred enjoyment that God has divinely associated with the responsibility of Christian marriage.

Absolutely, KFC. I should have quoted the entire passage (as it is very relevant to much that is going on in the world today. Corinth was a mess and we are too). In this list of sins similiar to those given in 1Cor.5:10-11, St.Paul explicitly teaches that those who commit these sins will not get to Heaven, that is will not gain eternal salvation. There's no mincing of words. The whole list is a kind of explanation of what "unrighteousness" means. Not only those who go against righteousness who wrongly go to law or defraud others, righteousness, justice, in the language of the BIble, is equivalent to holiness and therefore is opposed to every kind of sin.

We can certainly relate St.Paul's admonition, "Do not be deceived" to situations in our day and time. He is saying that the Corinthians are not to make out such actions as "good" and that is as bad as to commit them. In Corinth and other places, there were false ideologies which interpret sinfulness as virtue.

So, yes, we have free will and God's map to real freedom is following the Ten Commandments. Like Christ, we can't render God's Commandments null or be comprimising with evil and evil doers. When you think about it, this is what abounds nowadays. Free will is denied by dominant psychology or ideology and we are told that we're victims of circumstance, birth, and our choices in life are determined by our disfunctional families, taumatic childhoods, and a big one--patriarchial structures, economic injustice, etc, etc.

To get back on point, humans possess free will and have the ability to determine our thoughts and actions and we are ultimately responsible for those and will be held accountable for those before the Judge.