There are NO extenuating circumstances

I am a soldier, not a judge.

from JoeUser Forums



http://www.rssol.com">






            The recent probe into allegations of torture and mistreatment against P.O.W.s has stirred up a massive hornets nest. As a member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy some of my readers might expect me to attempt to spin or damage control this. I refuse.


            For most of our nations history there has been a concerted in not always successful effort made on the part of our Government as an extension of our society to fight wars as humanely as possible. There have been monumental failures of course so don’t bother citing them to me again.


            The point is that for the most part the US has had a reputation for adhering to the tenets of the Geneva Conventions, not allowing torture, and the extensive use of rewards rather than coercion to elicit information from P.O.W.s. This campaign was so successful overall that in the first Gulf War there were mass quantities of surrenders from opposing forces simply because they knew from reputation that we would likely treat them better as prisoners than they were being treated as soldiers.


            If you asked any soldier in the world the question, “If you became a P.O.W. which country would be the best to be held by?”, the vast majority of responses would be the USA. Contrast this with the behavior demonstrated towards P.O.W.s over the years by countless other nations and you had the foundation for a real effective combat multiplier. Surrender is 20 times more effective than killing or wounding. Instead of making mortal enemies of the fallen combatants family and friends you immediately made a friend out of the soldier and upon repatriation he was very likely to spread the word and convert others.


 


            These moronic, barbaric, degenerate jailers have just shot that straight to hell.


 


            That’s right, with the ease and efficiency only possible to those who can not see any consequences for their own actions these soldiers managed to undo the arduous work of over 200 years. They have ensured that there will be much more doubt in an opposing soldiers mind as to whether he will be treated well if he lays down his arms or whether it is worth it to hang on another day as a combatant. Let me be clear, these soldiers are committing fratricide by proxy. From now on every time an enemy soldier fires his weapon instead of surrendering as a result of their action and kills a US soldier some of that blood is on these jailers hands. Their punishment must be swift, harsh, and public.


            There are no extenuating circumstances possible in this scenario… none. Once an enemy solder is removed from battle and ceases to be a combatant, a soldier loses all rights to judgment or punishment for that prisoner. From that moment on he is to be protected not punished. If the prisoner has killed hundreds of our troops and then surrendered…. No jailer punishment…. If he raped 20 soldiers before being captured…. No punishment from soldiers….. Again to be clear, we as soldiers are organs of the Executive Branch, not the Judicial. We have no powers of judgment off the battlefield. If a prisoner has committed crimes that are known then he will be punished by wartime judiciary powers et up for that purpose. He will not be adjudicated by PVT Snuffy.


            These soldiers must receive the full force of punishment for this offense. We can not become the barbarians we fight to keep from our gates. If this behavior continues then the Fifth Column has already won and the War is lost.



5,192 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
It appears that the HTML converter is not working quite as well as usual so the Answer Man article will just have to wait until tomorrow.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
sigh... and now even the comments are hosed up... There must be some sort of fishy maintenance going on methinks...
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

Sounds right to me.

Good article.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
OK...I was going to write a whole blog on this topic, but you've managed the perfect set up for my remarks.

You are absolutely right that these "moronic, barbaric, degenerate jailers" are committing fratricide by proxy. But I believe it is even worse than that. By engaging in immoral, illegal, and dishonourable behaviour towards the prisoners they are charged with housing, they have aided and given comfort to the insurgents in Iraq. They have done this by giving the insurgents' cause the badge of justice.

When we Americans are GOOD in our actions and our enemies are EVIL, then we have the strength of righteousness. But these jailers have given that up on behalf of all of us, at least as far as our enemies are concerned. Our enemies in Iraq now have "righteousness" on their side, and a banner 'round which to rally.

There is one way, and I believe one way only to repair the damage that has been done. The jailers need to be quickly, ie within a few days, convicted of treason and taken to the front gates of Falujah, and publicly shot. This action on our part will save the lives of many soldiers, and will cement in the minds of Iraqis that our standards are not double. We will win the hearts and minds of our enemies, who will know for sure that America has honour, and morality. Honour is not cheap, but if we allow these jailers to be incarcerated back in the states, what will that mean to Iraqis? It will mean that America has no honour. And that gives our enemies comfort, that their cause is right.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I literally said "amen" out loud when I read this. If we lose moral ground, we've lost everything.

~Buddha
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
According to the news I have read in the online New York Times, so far the punishments are very mild. Here is a quote: B]: " The senior American commander in Iraq has ordered the first punishments in the abuse of prisoners by American soldiers there, issuing severe reprimands to six who served in supervisory positions at Abu Ghraib prison and a milder "letter of admonishment" to a seventh."
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
If we lose moral ground


I dont want to be provocative here... but as far as I am concerned... you never had it...

I know you are against these tortures etc. but those American tropps should have never been in Iraq... When this news speads across the Arab world, it's time to be afraid... there is nothing to lose.

BAM!!!
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good article, greywar. Thank you for writing it.

Muggaz raises an interesting point in how the rest of the world perceived the war in Iraq, but America lost moral high ground internally. We are going to judge ourselves and our leaders on how we handle this.

Estrogen Lass' comment is so poorly written I am not even sure who her critique was aimed at. but in the event that it was toward Muggaz, be aware that the rest of the world is watching us. America is perceived differently abroad than at home. You may not like it, you may say that it is irrelevant, but those perceptions exist.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

The senior American commander in Iraq has ordered the first punishments in the abuse of prisoners by American soldiers there, issuing severe reprimands to six who served in supervisory positions at Abu Ghraib prison and a milder "letter of admonishment" to a seventh."

the Letters of Reprimand are simply the very first thing to be doen to these folks not the last. The military system is not like the civilian. We can receive multiple punishments for the same offense. L.O.R.'s are standard practice as the first step in *any* serious offense.

 

Larry - her remark was directed at muggaz I beleive.

 

Muggaz - I appreciate your thoughts but please try and stay within the scope of the original post? If you want to discuss the "legality" of the war in Iraq please write a blog about it.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Like that's the first ever abuse of POWs. Gimme a break, what they did was nothing compared to some other atrocities performed on POWs that the world has seen (or heard of) and conviniently forgotten. To the victors go the spoils. The only differrence now is that the media is involved and has tons of cash to throw around for pictures like that. You cry foul at some mild psychological torture, yet the bodycount mounts, the terrorists keep on blowing things up and the world keeps turning. It's a war people, the lines get blurred. Move on.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

OK...I was going to write a whole blog on this topic, but you've managed the perfect set up for my remarks.

Arquonzo - well you better write somethign there as I just added you and Pseudoto the blogroll... ha the blog is on the other foot now! umm err whatever...

Mack - Thanks for the comment but I think you missed the point of the article entirely.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mack - Thanks for the comment but I think you missed the point of the article entirely.


I got the point of the article, it's just that having heard and read about this issue so many times lately, to me it's really just beating the dead horse and I hardly think the soldiers' actions were as horrific as most people make them out to be. I doubt they will have long-term reprecussions either, if put to rest. Sorry, I'll refrain from off-topic comments in the future
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mack - Ah now I have a better grasp on your thoughts concernign this issue. I did wait a bit too long to write this article but I did not want to spam Draginol's "Jumping to conclusions in Iraq" article with this whole mess as one long comment.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey, thanks for addressing this issue. I was wondering what your take was on the subject especially now the "media blame" is shifting from the soldiers in question to Military Intelligence.

Good article!
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
MACK/NGE... you may call it mild psychological torture, but there are alot of people who would choose death over being forced to mimic homosexual behavior.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good point, Arquonzo. Link

mentions some of the torture, and I had read another article recently (lost link) where the exact thing you described was said by an Arab. Notice, too, that it's not just the homosexual behavior (although I'm sure that weighs in), but also that they were being forced to do these things by women, who also witnessed them doing these immoral acts and saw them naked. Big psychological impact.

But back on Greywar's topic: it's so obvious to me that he's correct about what *must* be done in order extricate our nation from this problem. I only hope that the military leadership will actually stay the course and do "the hard right" of punishing our soldiers. Many people want to support the soldiers so badly that they seem to excuse the soldiers' actions, at least in part. I'm all for supporting our soldiers (obv. duh, right?) but accountability for one's actions and the actions of the troops under you can't be avoided.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Our enemies in Iraq now have "righteousness" on their side, and a banner 'round which to rally."

Now? Dingbat these people have always felt they have righteousness on their side. They bomb innocent men, women and children in the name of their rightiousness and feel nothing but good. To me this is all about psychological warfare... How often do you see American soldiers being paraded on tv, beaten and abused? American dead bodies dragged down the street, hung from bridges. Good God do you think their intellectuals turn on those few guilty ones and put a stop to it? Hell no their banners call for more killing in the name of their God. If you think niceness is going to get these people to lay down their arms you are sadly mistaken.

What about the moral of our fighting force? All we ever see on television is our soldiers being killed and dragged down some street. HELLO PEOPLE, we can LOSE this war, you do realize that right? Surely you don't think because we are the U.S. that our niceness will some how keep us strong as a nation forever? The problem is they have no fear of us, they know we will treat them nice so why worry if we drag an American soldiers body down the street while the body parts rip from the torso... they already believe America is weak, otherwise you would not see American bodies swinging from bridges.

Now the image of a FEMALE AMERICAN SOLDIER handling a male prisoner on a leash will give them something to think about... Let me say this, the state of the muslim world today has more than any other time in my life made me want to join some Neo-Nazi organization. I for one am damned tired of being pushed around by a bunch of camel jockey's with guns.

I question whether GreyWar is truly a soldier. You seem more likely to be a Peace Activist. Just my opinion....

Sign me sick and tired of being abused and ready to abuse!!!!!!!
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
At long last, an unambiguous article about this subject. Well put, Greywar.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Greywar, I started to write an article about this the other day, but as my time was limited I was unable to finish. I am glad that you wrote it and did so as elaboratly and informative as you did. There are many ideas and truths here that it does become hard to stick to one belief or another. I myself had a few differances, such being...

joeandsue74 -


Very much of this response is true! Yes, the Geneva Conventions states spacific war "rules", but since when have other countries followed these "laws" to a tee. Where are all the pictures that we are not seeing of Americans being tortured inhumanly? Just becouse American soldiers got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, does that mean that our soldiers are not being equally tortured? Think for just a moment, Viet Nam, is everyone forgetting the hianous torture that was bestoed upon our POW's and MIA's? Not discluding other wars, but come on, American soldiers have been subjected to such inhumaine tortue that only a extremely twisted mind could have even come up with the ideas of some of these procedures. Over the years, the offenders of sudh herrendous acts, still have never been punished!!

Another thought. September 911 and other incidences should have taught us something. The soldiers in Iraq and surrounding areas, have been trained solely to "DIE" for their cause. So if these pictures are circulating and causing a ruccess here, is it really mattering there? Just amunition to use against the Americans because they are such "fools", (quoted from a Iranian cook at a nearby resturaunt). Those soldiers that were treated in this manner are seen as heroes, or better off dead. They served their purpose and that is that (again a qoute form a "fellow" Iranian). I am not saying that this is right, but, it is true and they way of war. As they say, "all is fair in love & war". So the laws of the Geneva Convention have been tested and bent, this is NOT new.
A couple of years back I was working at a resteraunt where I was amoung only two Americans. I found myself arguing with two of the Iranian workers on a regular basis. Why? Because they made it clear they completly hate Americans. Example of one such fight; there was a case going on here in Ohio where the brothers of a girl beat and killed their sister because she was dating a "white American". The cook (the owners cousin) said that the brothers should not have to go to jail becouse they did what they would do in "their" country and what they did was rightous. As I tried to explain to him that they are not in their country, there are laws here that call that murder. Blah blah blah, as it heated and went on, he was more than happy to let me know that his people are here to use our system, get what they can, will go back to their country stronger, richer and with more knowledge of Americans immoralistic ways which will one day be used against us. That America & it's government was so foolish that they believe thay are the greatest nation and the strongest, but we will see. That they do not care about consequences, only that their cause was embraced across the world and lived by. This went on often enough that when I walked away from that job, I was very clear on the thoughts of most individuals from that country. It was very clearly brought to my attention numberous times, that "their family is bigger then I could imagine and whatever family I thought I had, was nothing compared to their capabilities."
It has been made appearent to me that the fighters of Iraq would endure, dish out, and enjoy whatever needed to ensure the humiliation of the American people. They have a complete distaste for America and it's people. As I said, I didn't say that you don't have many valid points GreyWar, but, there is also another area that HAS to be looked at and grasped. You are a great writer and I think that you could add another article with this other side of it in a well informed, worded and interesting way. Think about it.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Now? Dingbat these people have always felt they have righteousness on their side.


I am less concerned by their banner of righteousness than I am with the diminshment of ours. As for the rest of your post.... meh...

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
That's a good article greywar, I agree with your view and I think a lot of people should understand that this is how most Americans feel and should not let this guide how they feel towards our people.

I am less concerned by their banner of righteousness than I am with the diminshment of ours.


My thoughts exactly, we should set an example for the treatment of POW's and these soldiers have tarnished that somewhat.