Christianity Is NOT Fair

So what's the solution?

i am sorry KFC, but you really said few things about GOD that i have to take issue with. however, it is not my intention to get into a round about discussion. So would you please tell me, are you really serious about searching for the truth or you are set in your ways and regardless of the evidence and logic you are not willing to change your understanding?

based in your answer, we can have a reasonable discussion. or just leave at that.

Thanks in advance for answering that question.

i am sorry KFC, but you really said few things about GOD that i have to take issue with

I'm just curious what that would be?

So would you please tell me, are you really serious about searching for the truth or you are set in your ways and regardless of the evidence and logic you are not willing to change your understanding?

I am a truth seeker no matter where it leads me . It's not opinion I'm after, mine or anybody else's when it comes to the truth. I just want the truth above all.

I believe that Jesus is not only the solution...he's the truth and I don't say that lightly. To believe otherwise we'd have to call him a liar.

A perfect environment wouldn't have satan in it, would it?



But no knowledge of good and evil to tell them that disobeying was wrong.



No, that's false. Satan was in the garden. God allowed Satan to be there. Any imperfection is a result of that.



The Christian equivalent of the PETA people, or the peace-at-all-costs people, and anyone else who believes that the world is naturally filled with 'wrongness', and that our default state is morally wrong. People who can't live in their environment without seeing it as evil are deranged. Period.

It's just a way for maladjusted people to feel normal, when the world is telling them that they aren't. We know what to call it when someone says "It's not me that's crazy, it's the rest of the world that's crazy." YOU know you are Napoleon, so it's the rest of mankind that is delusional. Same thing, different topic.

Even if you take the Garden story at face value, do you honestly think that God would want us to all sit around in the buff in the boring old garden all day?

No way, José.

This statement represents the fatal flaw in the Eden myth. If one accepts the fact that God is all knowing, and knows everything past, present, and future, then God would have already known what Adam and Eve were going to do. Yet he created the situation anyway, knowing full well what would happen. Hardly fair, is it? I'd say that's quite unfair, contrived, and is basically a set up.

So, for those who take the bible literally God is a prankster who creates a situation where He knows ahead of time that the people involved are going to fail. You're right, certain views of Christianity certainly don't present a fair God, do they?

Satan is harmless if we don't mess with him. He has no power over me or you unless we let him. You've heard this: "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."

or how about this:

"Resist the devil and he will flee."

Was that done by Eve?



hey, I imagine they had perfect bodies....who wouldn't want to show that off?



yes, I would agree, you would see it that way. But God had a plan and a purpose from Day 1 to have a people to love and be loved of their own free will. He had to test their love for him. An untested love is no love at all. He knew exactly what they would do, and that's why he provided a Savior before this even happened. Later in scripture we read that the Savior was predestined from the beginning of the earth. Yes, God did know.



Just because he knows means what? He's bad? If you knew ahead of time that something was going to happen does that make you bad just for knowing? He did warn them remember? They didn't listen. So who's to fault? God? Satan? or Adam and Eve? Did the day of no accountability start right here?

Exactly why? If He knows everything past, present, and future He already knew what they would do so the test itself is both invalid and pointless. I fully understand the literal viewpoint that the savior was predestined from the beginning, but the literal view of the Eden story simply doesn't hold up to logic in so many ways.

Truth, real truth, will hold up to critical and logical examination. The Eden story fails that test. Any real seeker of truth would have to acknowledge this obvious fact. Either one is sincere is seeking truth, or is a zealot who ignores logic and critical thinking. The Eden story is nothing more than a myth created by men to explain the origins of humanity. This doesn't invalidate God at all, but does make the difference between intelligent faith and blind zealotry.

Did Job mess with him? I think you are wrong. I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.

The fact is the Bible states plainly that the garden had the devil in it. No one can say it was perfect.

he knows, but we didn't. Now we do. We know how unlike God we really are. We can never be "as god" so said the snake. Eve didn't know that but now we do. There's going to come to a point in time when we will not challenge God's laws because we'll know exactly where we've been. We'll put God in his rightful place and leave him there not willing to usurp him in favor of ourselves.




exactly. That's why I'm on this side now. Much thought and logic went into this.




How so?



acknowledge what Mason? You gave me no facts, just opinion so far.



hahahah see I say the same about evolution. The Atheists needed something to explain away God. And the creation story was here long before Darwin. (I know, I know Baker, Darwin wasn't the first...but he wasn't off by much...LOL).

No, the fact is that the Eden story is simply illogical. You can twist and turn around it all you like but the fact is that it simply isn't logical. Logic is objective and opinion has no effect upon it. Everything you have tried to use as a counter argument is pure opinion without any fact at all.

It's sad that someone who claims to be a seeker of real truth can't think objectively.

No, the fact is that the Eden story is simply illogical

Why is it illogical Mason?

You can twist and turn around it all you like but the fact is that it simply isn't logical.

why? What am I twisting? I'm reading it as literal. I'm twisting nothing.

Logic is objective and opinion has no effect upon it

ok, I have no problem with that.

Everything you have tried to use as a counter argument is pure opinion without any fact at all.

well if that's true, then it's alot of people's opinion. Many very learned scholars believe this to be true. So it's all our opinions then? Also, Jesus quoted Genesis and gave it credibility. Was he illogical too? If so, aren't I in good company?

It's sad that someone who claims to be a seeker of real truth can't think objectively.

I AM thinking logically, that's what I keep trying to tell you. The logic has brought me here.

And there were other stories before your Biblical creation story was written down. Egypt worshiped other gods, and Moses dealt with the Pharaoh before he wrote the Torah, right? Anyone would obviously claim that their creation story came first, it is a CREATION story, after all.

He also said "I am the door". Was he saying that he was made of wood and had hinges? After all, if one is going to take the bible literally one can't pick and choose.

You are trying to use twisted logic to justify taking the Eden myth as a factual, literal account and it simply doesn't hold up. I've already stated why it isn't logical and will not repeat myself. You can easily go back and re-read what I already typed. The "untested love" thing simply doesn't make sense when one considers an omniscient God. There actually is a response that would make far more sense, and is explained more than once in the bible, but you have totally failed to hit upon it. Baker has even hinted at it a couple of times but you have totally missed it. You are certainly not thinking logically, you are thinking like a blind zealot which is all I am really trying to point out to you although I doubt that you will see it.

Anyone would obviously claim that their creation story came first, it is a CREATION story, after all.

hahaha, ya, that's true isn't it? Creation comes first. Has to.

He also said "I am the door". Was he saying that he was made of wood and had hinges? After all, if one is going to take the bible literally one can't pick and choose.

Mason, have you ever heard me say....one of the principles of exegeting scripture is........if it makes sense, seek no other sense?"
The bible is both symbolic and literal. We use examples everyday in our language that we don't take literally like.....I'm so hungry I could eat a bear. It's raining cats and dogs.....etc. I'm sure you can think of some.

You are trying to use twisted logic to justify taking the Eden myth as a factual, literal account and it simply doesn't hold up. I've already stated why it isn't logical and will not repeat myself

but you haven't.....you've given me NO facts. Just the fact that you call it a myth shows me you have presupposed opinion without thoroughly checking the facts. Be honest with me Mason. Have you ever REALLY check the facts surrounding this issue? Really? Or have you just taken on opinions? I want people to check facts. I want people not to rely on popular opinion so I'm not saying this to be mean.

The "untested love" thing simply doesn't make sense when one considers an omniscient God. There actually is a response that would make far more sense, and is explained more than once in the bible, but you have totally failed to hit upon it. Baker has even hinted at it a couple of times but you have totally missed it.

how can one know one's character unless it's been tested? Our character is REVEALED in our circumstances like trials. We're like sponges. we're not sure how we'll hold up until we get wet. Why doesn't this make sense? Would you "enlighten" me to what you are hinting at?

You are certainly not thinking logically, you are thinking like a blind zealot which is all I am really trying to point out to you although I doubt that you will see it.

That's the second time Mason, you have attacked my character. I ignored the first. Usually that means, end of debate. It means you have nothing left.

*sigh* you use typical dodging tactics and are intentionally obtuse regarding logic.



You might be surprised by how much I have researched this particular subject. It was one of my favorite topics while in college and did eventually lead me to a belief in God (yes it may surprise you to know that I am a Christian). Just not of the illogical view that you seem to have of God. A great deal of the bible is metaphorical (including and especially Genesis) and strongly influenced by the culture of the time. Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally. I find it sad that so many legalistic, literal people simply fail to understand this.

If you can't understand simple logic as applied to the myth then there is nothing left to say. You simply refuse to consider a simple thought process called logic. I can see that you aren't sincere in your claim to be seeking truth but instead prefer to stick to illogical talking points provided by others. I'm done with this as it's obvious that rational discourse simply isn't possible here. Too bad really as it could be an interesting conversation.

I'm just curious what that would be?

here is one :"the last thing you want is for God to be fair". God is nothing if not fair and just, He is Absolute Fairness and Justice personified. and that is to everyone and everything He created whether they believe in Him or not.

Here is another one:"We beieve that the current system was not the original system. It is a distortion of what God intended. God's original design was exactly what you might wish for; It was fair. ". God's "original system" and "what God intended" Can Not and are Not subject to change or distortions by any of His creations. your idea of God is unfortunately much less than what He is as He described Himself. What you missing is this: nothing in all what He created is there but for His will or His permission. He exercises His will and creates what He wants and along with it the rules by which that creation acts and lives. For Adam and all of us that includes the will to choose (by the way that was an offer from Him that Adam accepted, it was not a decree from Him that Adam and us should have 'Free Will' ". He allows our choices to go according to the laws He created. But sometimes He interferes with that and blocks the natural outcome for our behaviors or actions. I am sure we all know situations like that ....... we call it miracles or "Unbelievable" dont we? God is the ABSOLUTE and that in everything: Power, Justice, Fairness, Knowledge, Mercy, Forgiveness, Punishment, Planning, Love, Hate, ... etc. Always remeber HE created EVERYTHING, that includes good as well as bad things. Nothing Exists that He did not create and nothing happens that He did not Allow. He is much more than what you think of Him.

I am a truth seeker no matter where it leads me

I believe that Jesus is not only the solution...he's the truth and I don't say that lightly. To believe otherwise we'd have to call him a liar.

I am glad you are that way. However God is The solution, nothing and no one else is. And you are correct, Jesus and all other prophets will never lie or misrepresent the God who sent them to us.

If you really looking for the truth, look and study what ALL He said not just in the OT/NT but also in Qura'an. Muslims believe that it is the Words of God too. so let's take them at their words and see what it says. you dont have to be a Muslim to read it or discuss what it says. We do that all the time when we talk about terrorism, don't we? so why not read it all and see what it says about all these issues we talking about here. it has an equal claim as the OT/NT if not more, since it claims it is the literal words of God with no human input whatsoever unlike the OT/Nt which have considerable input from humans and they were written decades after Jesus and Moses passed away from Earth while Qura'an (according to Muslims) was written and documented during Mohammad's life and he reviewd it twice with Archangel Gabriel before he died. Truth seeking dectates that we look at all sources and not intentionally ignore what is available. If we dont, it means that we really not looking for the truth. we just looking for what supports our views. That is different than looking for the truth.

The Creation Story as told in OT is incomplete that is why it sounds like a myth and is subject to all the logical questions you see here. and you really have no logical answer since you relying solaly on the OT. Here is what Qura'an say about the Creation and it answers most if not all the questions raised here in this thread:

God told the Angels He will create a special creation and told them I will Inject him with part of my Spirit. When I do and I perfect him Kneel Down to him. The Angels were not exactly happy with that and asked why is God doing that while they worship Him and Obey Him perpetually and without hesitation. He told them I know what you dont know. And I know what you think and feel about that too. They apologized and said we should not ask about things we dont know.

After God created Adam He taught him ALL names (that is everything including the meaning of everything i.e. Right, Wrong, Love, Hate, Good, Bad, Obey, Disobey ..etc.) and asked the Angels to name these same things, they couldnt and He asked Adam and Adam did say all the names that he learned from God. Then God Offered the "Trust" (Qura'an's term for free will as understod by Muslims) to ALL Creations. ALL declined it Except Adam, he accepted it. God then told the angels "didnt I tell you that I know what you dont? now you see he is special? Then God orderd All angels to Kneel Down before Adam. All did except Satan. when God asked Satan why he didnt obey, Satan answerd "I am better than him, you created me from fire but he is from dust". God answerd that by cursing Satan for disobediance and condemned him to Hellifire for Eternity. Satan replied "since you did that, what if i prove that he is not worthy of all that you have given him?give me a chance to prove my point and after that do what you will, we all are Subjects to You". God's reponse was an example of His Fairness and Justice, He gave Satan his wish and told him go and do what you can but you will never have power over him and his children AS LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN ME AND FOLLOW MY GUIDANCE. All that while Adam is there watching and listening along with all the Angels.

God then created Eve and He told BOTH that Satan will try to decieve them and he is their worst enemy and they should not listen to what Satan says, he will try to make them disobey God and that is a sin they should not commit and they should follow God's guidance otherwise they will be punished severely if they follow Satan's advice. The rest of the story is similar to what is in the OT.

The story as told by Qura'an asnwers many questions:
1- Adam Chose to accept the "Free Will" responsibilities, it was not imposed on him. By doing that he raised his status in God's sight and God appreciated that. but nothing is free in Free-Will-Environment. By doing that Adam elevated his status (and ours) over most of the creations but (and this but is the price of that) he subjected himself (and us) to punishment as well. Eden was and is a glorious place and it is beautiful but nothing, nothing is perfect Except HIM. Every creation have their own faults. by definition the Created Can't be as good as the Creator. and since God is Perfect nothing else is. just remember the word perfect here means "Absolute Perfection". That only belongs to Him. not even to Eden or Paradise. same thing applies to all His attributes, Powerful, Meciful, Great, Exaulted,.... etc.

2-It was not a Test. Satan refused to accept the fact that Adam is better than him in God's sight and he wanted to prove his cliam. Being Fair and Just, God granted Satan that request and warned Adam and Eve about the challenge. He had previously taught Adam what is right and what is wrong and that following Satan's advice IS a SIN and is wrong and will be punishable by God.

3- Adam and Eve were not ignorant of what is right and what is wrong. they were fully aware of that. God punished Adam and Eve by sending them down to Earth as punishment for this one disobedience and he told them Again what He said before and that the challenge from Satan will continue on Earth and you and your children will be safe as long as you follow Me not Satan and I promise both of you that i will send you guidence through My Prophets. "Believe in ME and Listen to My Prophets and he will have no power over you and dont follow Satan and his followers humans or Jinn they are your worst enemies", That is how Qura'an puts it. Free Will involves choices and since Adam is a creation and he does not have Absolute Goodness and sooner or later his choices will include mistakes. Adam knew that and he still accepted the offer. Yes God could have refused Satan's request but that would not be fair to Satan, would it? Satan is convinced that he is better than Adam and wanted to prove it. It was a fair decision, let both Adam and Satan face each other and see who is better. God promised Adam (and us) that He will always be on our side as long as we are on His. What could be more Fair and Just than that?

4-Whether the Story is a fact or a myth depends on one's belief in GOD himself. If one believes that God, the Absolute God not the one you describe, is a fact and exists, then it is not much of a problem to say that the story as told by Qura'an is also a fact. It represents no logical problems. it is consistent and logical there. The cahallenge would have continued in Eden even if Adam and Eve did not eat from that tree. Satan would have tried something else. sooner or later they would have disobeyed, since they are not perfect and they can never be and they would have ended up here on Earth.

Truth, real truth, will hold up to critical and logical examination. The Eden story fails that test

As told in Qura'an it holds up very nicely. And you are correct Real Truth must hold up to critical logical examination. you just have to get the full story first before you can examine it. Actually Qura'an "Invites" and "orders" that kind of logic and examination of all things in life around us. it just says "examine all around you and what you hear and see and don't pick and choose and be honest in your assessment" that is how Qura'an puts it.

(yes it may surprise you to know that I am a Christian).

Why should I be surprised? I should know right away if you are a brother to me. It should be obvious. Is it a secret? I've met people I didn't know for more than five minutes and right away there was a connection with the HS. Doesn't matter what nationality, color or language spoken.....the spirit Paul said bears witness and I find this to be true.

A great deal of the bible is metaphorical (including and especially Genesis) and strongly influenced by the culture of the time. Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally.

what parts? How do you determine? When Moses got the 10 commandments, was that fiction? How about when Jesus turned water into wine? Pretend? Peter walking on water? A myth? How can you say it's fiction in some spots and not others? I've already given you my principle of when it makes sense seek no other. Actually I find a great part of the bible to be prophetical. Some coming true already and some still future.

Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally.

Jesus always used common things to teach a literal truth so I'd disagree here. He used common everyday things, like a door, bread, wine, water, wine, etc. Parables were spoken for a reason. It was a way to communicate truth. My guess when I read those parables like the Prodigal Son or the Farmer with lazy farmhands etc. Jesus had somebody in mind when he told them.

I can see that you aren't sincere in your claim to be seeking truth but instead prefer to stick to illogical talking points provided by others.

ya know speaking of logic. This is a double sided argument. Who are these others?

I find it sad that so many legalistic, literal people simply fail to understand this.

first of all I may be literal...I'll admit that....but I am not legalistic at all...by no stretch, unless your definition of legalism is believing the bible is the literal word of God. Then you might have a point.

I'm done with this as it's obvious that rational discourse simply isn't possible here. Too bad really as it could be an interesting conversation

No, this is Mason getting angry and taking his toys home with him. Com'on Mason, I like you, I have no problem with you but here you have really lit into me hard filling your comments with lots of insults. As a Christian, like you said, how does this fit with your belief? I'm really not into Christian cannablism.

You've really given me nothing but only repeating I'm not logical but you're not backing anything up. Tell me why I'm illogical. I'm ok with that.

How did you determine that Jesus wasn't wood and hinges? That's always been your problem, you are the only one that gets to decide when something is literal or not.

How did you determine that Jesus wasn't wood and hinges?

Are you serious? I dearly hope you're joking.

If so, please excuse me, I'm not used to this side of Baker.

Seriously. It's a matter of degrees, granted, but all the time you are saying that *duh* that was figurative or *duh* that is literal. Then, the first time anyone else says something is figurative that you think is literal you start with the, "but how do you pick and choose" stuff.

So, I was just asking, how do you? Surely not "your heart"... surely not "common sense". Surely after scolding folks for using those vile tools so many times you wouldn't rely on that.

OH, wait, that's right, when it is your heart it is the "HS", when it is mine it is the "wisdom of the world"...

The solution is NOT to try and explain EVERYTHING through Christianity....might as well put you in a room with a devout Buddhist and Hindu and let you exhaust yourselves putting forth each other's "truths" while life continues on.....

BAKERSTREET POSTS: The fact is the Bible states plainly that the garden had the devil in it. No one can say it was perfect.

God created expressly a garden that is known as Paradise. There was sublime happiness, tranquility, etc. No death, no violence, but perfect harmony between God and man, man and animal and man with one another. From this standpoint, it was the most 'perfect" place on earth located in Asia between the two great rivers. The perfectness of the garden was origiinally intended by God to be forever as Adam and Eve were given the gift of immortality by eating of the Tree of life.

Heaven is the only super natural place of eternal Perfectness, but here we're talking about an earthly situation and place.

KFC---Very good and interesting article....Although I get Stanley's point, I think that basing article on "fairness" is awkward. It's entitled Christianity is not fair and yet if you look up the word "fair" or "fairness", you find the word "just". From that standpoint, I think one could argue that Christianity is just....and this would be a contradiction in terms. No?

Reply By: KFC (Kickin For Christ) Posted: Thursday, February 08, 2007
A perfect environment wouldn't have satan in it, would it?


Satan is harmless if we don't mess with him. He has no power over me or you unless we let him. You've heard this: "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."

or how about this:

"Resist the devil and he will flee."

Was that done by Eve
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I agree with you KFC.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.



God created the angels before man. He gave them free will to love and obey Him. Lucifer's own vanity and pride got him thrown out of Heaven. Satan doesn't have "power". This is the wrong word to use. God didn't give Satan his evilness either, but allows him to prowl around the earth looking for souls to destroy. Man has been given free will and Satan's evilness is meaningless if we spurn him in thought, word and action.

Then, the first time anyone else says something is figurative that you think is literal you start with the, "but how do you pick and choose" stuff

that's not fair. What is being said is....it's a myth. Being figurative and being a myth to me is diff. Anytime in scripture where something is deemed figurative or symbolic there's truth behind it. It's not just being symbolic or figurative for that sake but rather to teach us the deeper truth behind it.

Like Christ saying he was the bread of life. It is a "duh" moment using your words. Of course we know he's not a loaf of bread. The deeper meaning we know is that he is our sustenance. We go to him to be fed spiritually like the Hebrews went to gather manna physically. He put the two together.

He is the door. Well, "duh" we know he's not a door. He's the only entrance to heaven. He's saying if you go thru me, you'll see the Father in heaven.

The reason that Genesis is a myth is because people want to believe it is. A myth is total fiction. It's fiction for fiction sake. To enjoy and lose yourself in it to get away from the real world. I'm saying Genesis does not fit the myth descriptive. Besides, where do you draw the line from fiction to non fiction? Abraham is prominent in Chap 12. Is that truth or fiction? I've said before Genesis and REvelation are two of the most attacked books of the bible and for good reason. Satan is doomed in both of them. I believe it's he that's behind the whole myth lie. Deception is his favorite game.

As far as Eden NOT being perfect because Satan was there we can't know for sure the time frame involved. We know when man and woman were first put in this enviornment and before God rested he said it was very good. He wouldn't have said that if Satan was lurking behind the apple tree. Sometime later Satan came into the picture, but we can't really know at what point this was.

Very good and interesting article....Although I get Stanley's point, I think that basing article on "fairness" is awkward. It's entitled Christianity is not fair and yet if you look up the word "fair" or "fairness", you find the word "just". From that standpoint, I think one could argue that Christianity is just....and this would be a contradiction in terms. No?

Wel this is one of like three of four articles I've written on this subject. during the last couple weeks or so. You may have to go back and read the others to really understand Stanley's point. What I'm saying is that if God was fair, he would give us what we deserve. We deserve death for breaking all his commands. We are tainted by sin and no one is exempt. We're guilty as charged. He's just because he looks at our records, our crimes and sees that a penalty was paid for us and he sets us free. Payment has been made. We are exhonorated with no other chance of being retried.

The solution is NOT to try and explain EVERYTHING through Christianity....might as well put you in a room with a devout Buddhist and Hindu

Do they offer an explanation and a solution for the evilness and sin in the world?

OH, wait, that's right, when it is your heart it is the "HS", when it is mine it is the "wisdom of the world"...

I've never done that Baker. I've never outright said it's on the HS that has told me such and such. The HS works in my life and has since I've come to Christ but the HS works as a witness. We know from scripture that we can't believe anything or anyone on just one witness. There has to be two or three witnesses before anything can be brought to court. It's the same with the HS. The HS works in us but usually has a confirmation of other things. Sometimes it's thru the confirmation of another person, or a situation, or by reading the word or hearing a sermon based on scripture. Jesus even mentioned all that spoke of him as a witness in John 5...his works, the scriptures, God himself on the day he was baptized, John the Baptist, etc. He gives us plenty to make things obvious for us. The question is are we observant?

Christians talk about this all the time. It's like moving for instance. We might ask God, is it time? Then things start happening. A job is lost, another job is secured. We open up scripture and it may say..."GO and I will direct your paths." Now we sometimes second guess and say....am I reading something into this or what? That's fair. But more and more you start to feel like the HS is urging you to get up and move by the evidence all around you. That's how the HS works. More like confirmation and sometimes a warning.

This happens in all sorts of situations. It may have to do with family situations medical decisions, making a large purchase, going into a new business etc. Sometimes we get bombarded with sermons or scripture and it can be very obvious. Sometimes we don't heed the HS and we realize it later. Been there, done that.

I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.

yes like Lula said tho he has no power over us unless we allow him in. God allows him to have his day but he will be defeated when God says enough. God said quite clearly thru Paul...."greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. We can do all things thru Christ who strengthens us." Think about Christ in his temptation. It can be done. He's our example.