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Searching for the "Truth"

Searching for the "Truth"

You have to look everywhere

Several yeas ago I read a book about "God and the New Physics" (by Paul Davis - pb.1984, Simon &Schuster). It is a good book, but selectivity is rampant in it. In all what the author lists as blatant contradiction between science and religion he mainly uses the Old and the New Testaments. Although he mentioned Islam in the beginning, he never took Islam's view in the matter into consideration.

No where is this selectivity so obvious than when searching for the "Truth" about how we and our universe were created and about our relationship with the "Creator". Scientists and Theologians are searching for the same "Truth" each from a different angle and with different tools. However, no matter how different are the angles or the tools, there are few basic principles that they both theoretically share. Both say that they rely mainly on "Logic" And "Evidence". Of course that "Evidence" relies heavily on an element of "faith". The scientists have faith in their methods and results and theologians have faith in the people who relayed the words of God to them. Unfortunately in most discussions, they both selectively pick and chose their "Logic" and their "Evidence".

Because of this selectivity, they both find contradictions and incompatibilities either within the other’s view or between their view and the other’s view. This is because sometimes incomplete truths or falsehoods are used and sometimes ignoring logic entirely is used.

I was reminded of that book while following recent dicussions here on JU about God, Good, Bad ....etc and I can safely say that the author of that book, as a scientist, usually uses All the facts available to him whenever he discusses any purely scientific topic. Considering the known fact that a good deal of human input went into the writings of both of the OT and the NT while Qura'an is considered (by Muslims) to be the direct and literal words of God, it is very strange that the author ignores a source that claims to be the actual words of God and relies solely on the two texts that don’t claim that. If he had included Qura'an in his discussion, ALL the contradictions that he pointed out would have been resolved.

For Example: The famous contradiction is the age of the Universe. All of the three Books say it was created in Six Days. The OT and the NT say nothing further than that. and it is understood by both religions as just "Six Days". This is obviously in clear contradiction to the scientific evidence that to go from the instant of the Big Bang (the light as it is called in the three books) when creation started to where you have seven heavens, stars, planets and moons you need billions of years. Had he consulted the third book, he would have realized that there really is no contradiction. Qura'an clearly says in many separate verses the Following: one time it says "And the Day of your Lord is 100,000 years of what you count". and in another verse it says "And the Day of your Lord is 50,000 years of what you count", and still in another it says "And the Day of you Lord is 20,000 years of what you count". It is amazing that more than 1425 years ago, there was a book talking about the relativity of time and its changing duration depending on where you are. Those "Six Days of your Lord" could easily be the billions of years of what we count that are needed for the universe to reach the point when Adam was created i.e. when there was Earth. No contradiction there.

Another example is the God/Adam/Eve/Snake (Satan) conflict. The OT/NT narrative presents many problems: why were Adam and Eve being tested? Did they have a choice in the matter? Why did Satan deceive Eve and Adam? and many other logical questions. Of course OT/NT believers have answers to these questions, but all these answers are not based on God's own words. It is based on the interpretation of the human input into the two books. and the answers themselves pose many logical questions.

However, Qura'an claims to be the literal and direct words of God, so at least he should have checked what it says about that conflict. If he had done that, he would have found that All the questions that he posed have a very logical answer in Qura'an's narrative

Religion/Science debate is not the only arena where incomplete information or biased one sided view clouds the vision of whoever is looking for any "Truth" . This distortion exists in most of what people generally discuss and that makes it almost impossible to reach a general agreement on any thing no matter how simple it is.

I don’t know if this is intentional bias in order to discredit the other's view or is it just natural tendencies to prove ourselves right and the others wrong regardless of the situation
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Reply #26 Top
Compare the geneology to say....Abraham in Genesis to Christ in Luke Chap


is that how you look in the bible for? i dont.

It is gods words and guidence that i am looking for. if He says Jesus is a descendent of Abraham, i believe it , i dont need a proof of that. the question is do i believe that it is His words or not? if i do then i dont need other proofs.
what matters is the rules and philosophy behind those rules. not the geneology. and the philosophy and the rules are the ones who make me believe it is the words of God or not based on their logic and consistencey.

That is the way i look at it. you can look at it any way you like. that is what belief is. it is a personal conviction, and each of us reaches what is convincing to him/her.
Reply #27 Top
It is gods words and guidence that i am looking for. if He says Jesus is a descendent of Abraham, i believe it , i dont need a proof of that. the question is do i believe that it is His words or not? if i do then i dont need other proofs.


Well the evidence backs it all up. God never expected us to have a blind faith. He opens our eyes to the truth. Our faith is built on what he's revealed to us. Yes it is more blessed to believe and not see but there are many out there that need to see so they can believe.

God has given us every opportunity to believe in him so we cannot go to him in that day and say he didn't do enough. He gave us all we need to know to believe in him.

I found this and thought you may want to check it out. It's a conversation between a Muslim and a Christian. One defended the Quran and one the bible and many points were brought up some that we've mentioned and some that we haven't touched on. In place of Matt you could put me because I agreed with all he said here.

WWW Link

and here's another one:

WWW Link
Reply #28 Top
and that proves that Qura'an identifies him as Alexander? these are people talking, no muslim regardless of his/her location ever thought of Zul-Qarnayn as alexander.


But I just showed you that Islamic Scholars attributed this to Alexander. They are Muslims...no?

Reply #29 Top
But I just showed you that Islamic Scholars attributed this to Alexander. They are Muslims...no?


yes they are, and they can think what they like. but God's words are God's words. and that is exactly my point that i pointed out to you many many times but you choose to ignore it. Human input in God's word can and many time will misrepresent what He say. and this is a clear exmple. there are many references in Qura'an about unidentified individuals and main-stream muslim scholars never try to identify them. Their position is very logical and it is this : "Qura'an is very specific in some areas and not in others. God does not need help from humans to identify what He did not".

The problem is that you take the human input in the bible as valid as God's or His prophets' words. Muslims don't.

Even if the prophet himself is reported to say something that is not in line with what Qura'an clearly says, Qura'an rules. only when it is not specific that the prophet's words become the rule.

No ONE else have any authority beyond those two sources and in that order.

so dont tell me so an so said such and such.

Qura'an is the ruling words not humans. for more than 1200 yrs now that is the position of the main four muslim scholars and they are : Abu Hanifa, Elshafei, Malik and Ibn Hanbal

even these four scholars themselves said their words could be wrong if someone else could use qura'an to prove that. they were just trying their best to interpret what God said, but they realize that they could be wrong. see how careful they were in their treatment of God's words? and you take historical and religious thoughts and narratives from people who were just eyewitnesses 20-30 years after the facts as God's word?

That is a far cry between the reliability of the two sources.
Reply #30 Top
One defended the Quran and one the bible


it is very amusing really. i thought we trying to discuss things in a serious way.

you have a person taht says that he is no scholar and he doesn't know whether this a verse or not and you refering me to that?

more over, God's revelation and words are proved by the fact it was accompanied by miracles? if there was a miracle then it is god, if there were none then it is not? dont you urself said Satan himself can do miracles also? magicians do that too. dont they?

what a way to prove that certain words are from God or not.

i think your bar for this kind of judgement is very low.

the higher bar is logic and consistency. not miracles. and if you really want miracles, it is between your hands. Qura'an ITSELF. That is what the prophet himself said.

As for the different rules in qura'an that is another matter completely. to understand them and see if they make sense or not you have to study it and see the logic behind it. just because you disagree with it doesnt make it illogical.