/me adds a tick mark in the "not-a-master" column.

Publicly bribing the powers that be is uncool.

Having said that, forgetting when my birthday is and sending me gifts daily so you don't miss it sounds prudent.

delete.. where is that delete... DANG.. ZU you are the one who sent me the list!!

And, since I love satire. I think people should be made to pay for master forum commenting. You know, just like you get from the loud obnoxious always has an axe to grind bout the latest favorite target with an even more obnoxious gallery of klingons in the audience who go woot woot on que every day on talk TV and talk radio. So please place a quarter next to your keyboard while reading this and i'll try to figure out some way to get it off your desktop and into my pocket. Later.

Ive been selling skins on my own site and on TGTsoft for years and have done very well.. with VS slowing down as a business decision ( i do this full time) I traversed the gap to Wb because its obviously the better market to be in now with Vista on the scene Also on my first attempt placed 3rd in GUIC Do i now have to start all over to sell on WC even though i have 5 years experience.. as i see my level is Citizen?

Wow, I always figured you to be in the MASTER category, with all that you have done for all the communities surrounding Skinning. I'd check into that if I were you.

Lots of good points being brought up here.

So....who decides what is a Master Skin? A Master Skinner?

Experience or quality? Features of the skin? What defines a "master skin"?

I've seen some great artists here slip to the wayside just because of personal opinion, or friendships made on the side that account for more then facts.

The GUI Championships was a joke. Not the skins so much, as how it was handled. Version 2 of skins in the category of "most original"....yada yada yada...being judged by back room buddies even after the masses voted the complete opposite way.

So.....talking about cutting off the nose despite the face, here we go again. Brad himself, admits he's not much of an artist but stands tall when it comes to judging other's artwork.

A Master Skinner isn't just one creates usable themes...or those that come with complete packages. Nor should they be defined by how many downloads a certain skin receives.

When it comes to being a Master, they not only know the tricks of the trade, the in's and out's of creating usable artwork...but also show a great respect towards others. Regardless of the level of artwork done by the other artists. They should be willing to not only spend time creating their own work, but to share their knowledge and help others become better artists themselves.

You have master artists here that have been listed because you've known them for a long time, and they've contributed to the community....but then turn right around and neglect new members to the community that have been skinning for just as long or longer, created great works of art, (VStyler for example) made a lil money on the side...and call them "newbies". These so called "newbies" are already professionals, but because they're not on your IM list, or speed dial on your cell phone....(god forbid they don't contribute to your costs of running the place by donating)...and you start them off at the bottom of the totem pole with not so polished artists above them.

Please note, this is not a strike at the artists themselves. Believe me when I say, I've seen some great work. But I've also seen some themes that no one here has seen, with artistic value in them that you should only hope to see. And this community should show it's pride and gratitude in knowing it has some of the best artists there ever will be.

and Brad.....please don't try to convince me with your long winded posts. I've seen the CES footage, the "cut off it's nose despite it's face" ... man...seriously, is there really any part of you that is YOU!! and doesn't belong to some other part of another's anatomy?

You so eagerly want great members of the artistic community to contribute to this site. But the only way you're going to get that, is to stop kissing Bill Gate's ass, Apple's ass....or anyone else's ass...stand up like a man, and see things for what they really are. In other words, SOUND OFF LIKE YOU GOT A PAIR!! and stop worrying about what "big brother" thinks.

This is your company is it not?

If you want it run for the community, run it with the community. You need to be able to post your opinion about something without having to worry if members/owners of Neowin, Microsoft, Apple are going to cut you from the Christmas card list.

So....who decides what is a Master Skin?

A Master Skin is, by definition one made by a person within our community who has attained Master level.

To reach 'Master' it is definitely not 'popularity', or 'mates' rates' [jobs for the boys]....it is recognition of consistency regarding skin creation and actual contribution to the Wincustomize.com Community [and elsewhere]'

The more a person puts INTO a community the more it is only right that the Community can be seen to be giving back in kind.  One way [now] is to give these 'major' contributors an opportunity to commercially benefit from their input.

This is the way to promote skinner interaction within the community, not by sitting aside and sniping at the efforts of others, whatever their 'level' within the community 'top' OR 'bottom'.

Hopefully this is not too 'long winded', [and, to be accurate the phrase is 'cut off your nose to spite your face']....

Wow, Morpheus, meet sour grapes. Sour grapes, meet Morpheus.

 

it's early, but Adni18's suite priced at $9.95 isn't moving real quickly whereas Tretogs Challenger has a ton of downloads at $4.95. It's been around longer but didn't have the advertising that this one has had.

The download counts on master skins is meaningless because people download them from the store link.

Treetog's dl count is high because it was put up during the WC beta.

As for sales, let me put it this way, a skinner could make a living doing nothing but Master skins based on sales. Adni's skin is making hundreds of dollars per day even two weeks after release.

Braniac..40 hours? lol, how bout 40 days..on some anyway. Ive been selling skins on my own site and on TGTsoft for years and have done very well.. with VS slowing down as a business decision ( i do this full time) I traversed the gap to Wb because its obviously the better market to be in now with Vista on the scene Also on my first attempt placed 3rd in GUIC Do i now have to start all over to sell on WC even though i have 5 years experience.. as i see my level is Citizen?

It would probably not take long to reach Master. But to answer your question - you don't just get to become a Master. It's based on contribution to the community.

For starters, create a WC personal page. (just go to settings).  Submit some of your great artwork here. You've got some already there.  In not too long a time, you'll make your way up.

 

 

So....who decides what is a Master Skin? A Master Skinner?

Users are gradually raised in level over time on the site and dependent on the nature of their contribution to WinCustomize.  Becoming a 'Master Skinner' is an honor we reserve for people who have really put in the time and effort to make WinCustomize a better place through their participation in the forums and through the quality of work they contribute.

Master Skinners are picked by a combination of site moderators and administrators.  It requires a near-unanimous vote to move someone up from Journeyman to Master.  Actually executing on the promotion is something currently only Frogboy, T-Man, KarmaGirl or myself can do.

Experience or quality? Features of the skin? What defines a "master skin"?

A Master Skin is a skin produced by a Master Skinner for sale on the site.  We do not accept blindly everything that is handed to us.  Our criteria for posting an item for sale is much more stringent than for allowing something into the regular galleries.

I've seen some great artists here slip to the wayside just because of personal opinion, or friendships made on the side that account for more then facts.

Such is the nature of any community.  Your ability to get along counts for a lot anywhere in life.

The GUI Championships was a joke. Not the skins so much, as how it was handled. Version 2 of skins in the category of "most original"....yada yada yada...being judged by back room buddies even after the masses voted the complete opposite way.

I suggest you go back and look at the GUI Champs process that we publicly went through and explained many many times.  Winners were selected by the judges panel.  The skins the judges had to pick from were based on PUBLIC USER VOTING.  Users are the ones who picked out the controversial skins in the first place.  If you're going to point a finger of blame over your personal favorite not winning, look to your fellow users first.

So.....talking about cutting off the nose despite the face, here we go again. Brad himself, admits he's not much of an artist but stands tall when it comes to judging other's artwork.

Anyone who spends a lot of time using a PC, using skins and icon sets, who works for years with artists and the community at large is definitely in a position to evaluate the quality of work.  Art critics often aren't artists.  Same goes for film & book critics.  You do not have to be capable of creating the work to be able to objectively judge it.  My guess is that Brad's been at this far longer than you have, so I'd venture a guess that he is in fact qualified to judge in a skinning competition.

You have master artists here that have been listed because you've known them for a long time, and they've contributed to the community....but then turn right around and neglect new members to the community that have been skinning for just as long or longer, created great works of art, (VStyler for example) made a lil money on the side...and call them "newbies". These so called "newbies" are already professionals, but because they're not on your IM list, or speed dial on your cell phone....(god forbid they don't contribute to your costs of running the place by donating)...and you start them off at the bottom of the totem pole with not so polished artists above them.

This statement reeks of a sense of entitlement.  Being awarded "Master" status here is entirely dependent on a user's time ON WINCUSTOMIZE.  There are many outstanding artists out there who don't feature their work on WinCustomize, that's true.  Some of them come to this site in time, which is great, but just because you've been skinning for years doesn't mean you're suddenly entitled to going to the top of the heap when you first show up.  We award ranks not purely based on skill, but also largely based on contribution to the community, as I've stated above.

vStyler is a great skinner, I think his Vectra skin is outstanding and I hope he becomes a more established member of the community.

If you want to become a Master on WinCustomize, you need to be a part of this community.  You need to contribute work, you need to participate in the forums and in as many facets of the community as you can.

and Brad.....please don't try to convince me with your long winded posts. I've seen the CES footage, the "cut off it's nose despite it's face" ... man...seriously, is there really any part of you that is YOU!! and doesn't belong to some other part of another's anatomy?

Ok, that made no sense.

You so eagerly want great members of the artistic community to contribute to this site. But the only way you're going to get that, is to stop kissing Bill Gate's ass, Apple's ass....or anyone else's ass...stand up like a man, and see things for what they really are. In other words, SOUND OFF LIKE YOU GOT A PAIR!! and stop worrying about what "big brother" thinks.

How on earth are we kissing anyone's ass here?  We've partnered with MS to deliver the DeskScapes Animated Wallpaper technology.  Working with another company does not equate to kissing ass.  Or are you simply referring to the fact that this is a Windows Customization community?  If that's the case you'd probably hate us no matter what horse we tied ourselves to since you'd just be looking for an excuse at that point. 

And Apple?  Huh?  That one makes no sense since we don't skin OS X, we don't even have Apple products outside of a beta version of Multiplicity.

This is your company is it not? If you want it run for the community, run it with the community. You need to be able to post your opinion about something without having to worry if members/owners of Neowin, Microsoft, Apple are going to cut you from the Christmas card list.

At this point you're just spouting nonsense that has no connection to anything even remotely close to reality.

But Mike.....he didn't want it 'long-winded'....

Great form Zoomba.  

Thanks for the advice Brad, I'll do that.

Honestly im not much for posting, or hanging out in forums though. I spend every minute i can skinning, i feel that anything else is just a a distraction to my goals.

I would hope that technical merit, innovation, attention to detail and overall quality of ones work carry far more weight when it comes to qualifying for Master status than length of stay, post counts and community activity.

Perhaps you can initiate a Master poster \ helper \ contributor program for those whose forte includes those things.   

Personally, Im 100% committed to my work as it directly affects my income and in turn.. livelyhood.

I'll try to participate a little more on the "community side of things" as time allows. But if im no Zoomba...don't hold it against me eh?   

I would hope that technical merit, innovation, attention to detail and overall quality of ones work carry far more weight when it comes to qualifying for Master status than length of stay, post counts and community activity.

No, those you mention would be prerequisites for those skins/works chosen to be hosted here for purchase.

Qualification for 'Master' status in itself is not specific to skinning ability as a singular criteria.

Community involvement/dedication counts equally, and largely that is a product of time, hence the various 'levels' before 'Master'....

Exactly. You can become a master purely through your contributions to the community in creating skins, themes, etc. 

JJ Ying is a master and I'm not sure if he's ever posted in the forums and such.

This is my first post here, so bear with me if the formatting is not quite up to par ... BTW, love the new site look!

There have been so many great responses to the negative comments ... speaks a lot to the quality of the committed membership in the community in terms of knowledge and handling of the occasional malcontent.

I think providing master skins for sale is wonderful and benefits everyone in many different ways. Those who are whining obviously have a sense of entitlement and a corresponding value system (can't give up a movie or cappuccino from Starbucks for a well-made skin that will much more tangible rewards? Unless you count the extra pounds from Starbucks LOL) that does not support what this community is all about.

I believe firmly that what you get what you pay for or don't pay for. I've had OD for a while, subscribe to WC and have purchased prem skins and other extras and have not regretted any of my purchases. I've also greatly enjoyed and much appreciated the wonderful stuff that is freely given by the skinners and creators here. I've purchased programs and skins not just for the benefit of ownership, but also to support the skinning community.

That being said, I do have some thoughts on what I see is a great direction for the community.

Perhaps you can initiate a Master poster \ helper \ contributor program for those whose forte includes those things.

VStyler echoes one of my thoughts ... should some kind of "mentoring" program be considered? It could be as informal or formal as warranted by the needs of those wanting to learn/improve their skinning skills and by those wanting to share their skills and to teach others.

Another kind of linking/collaboration could be between "partners." Say you have someone who has great coding skills but wants to improve their artistic skills and someone (like me LOL) who has good artistic skills/good with the graphics part of skinning but who wants to learn/improve the coding part of skinning. Together they could teach/mentor each other and continue the collaboration as long as they want.

I think having a master skin section may be a good idea, since what is offered in terms of the number of items and such will be different and require different pricing. Maybe even some way to provide some feedback in one place as this new venture develops. For example, if a skin is not originally in a color or scheme I prefer, whether or not I keep it depends on how well it colorizes. A screenshot showing a skin colorized in different hues would help someone like me who might not be originally attracted to a master skin offered for sale, but would be willing to buy it if it could be colorized in a way I like.

One last comment ... I can easily afford to buy skins with the money I am saving by not upgrading to Vista ... I am satisfied with XP (at least as well as I can be with Windoze) and with ObjectDock, I don't really feel like I'm missing either eye candy or functionality by going Vista-less!

I think it's a great idea. And I also think everone should go and download alot of I.R. Brainiac stuff I know I sure have he should be a master, alot of high quality work lets all help out.   

The preceding was a paid announcement.  

Just kidding POPSTAR13,but thanks for the recommendation.  

I get around a lot in these forums Took me four months to save for Object Desktop, circumstances being what they are. All in all I think Master Skins and this is just my opinion, applies to all those Ive downloaded, they are that good, to me anyway.
An old saying is that you get what you pay for. Freebies are good but that is just what they are, freebies, skins submitted by those more interested in sharing their work than making a buck. To deny anyone the right to a return is just wrong. That only Masters can do it just goes to show how hard they work at it and their commitment to quality.
The title isn't given away it's earned and I believe deep down that all of you deserve it.

You have master artists here that have been listed because you've known them for a long time, and they've contributed to the community....but then turn right around and neglect new members to the community that have been skinning for just as long or longer, created great works of art, (VStyler for example) made a lil money on the side...and call them "newbies". These so called "newbies" are already professionals,

Why should someone that just joined WC be able to jump right in and sell skins ?
Just because they have been around a long time and are considered " Professionals " and sold skins on their own site is no criteria for being a Master.

Most of the " Masters " here have contributed excessive amounts of time and " free " skins for a long time before being promoted.

You can't just expect to push ahead of others that have been here for years.

Fairyy~ hit it right on the head.
I'll take it one step further with a personal experience I had.

I worked at a company for 7 years. I was told by the President of the company, that I was in line to become General Region Manager. Everything was set up for the change.
The very next day, he hired a "new guy" that had never worked in the business before.
After asking the President "why?, his answer was because the new guy had college and I didn't.
I worked my a$$ off for that position and some newbie was given it instead.
Needless to say, that was my last day. It was wrong on so many levels.

I like VStyler's work. But you have to remember that Wincustomize didn't cut his legs off, so he can only make Stardock skins now. He said himself that he's made money off of creating StylesXP. There is no reason he still can't do that until he becomes a Master here.

Region Manager. Everything was set up for the change. The very next day, he hired a "new guy" that had never worked in the business before. After asking the President "why?, his answer was because the new guy had college and I didn't.

We have all seen this many times - the ' excuse ' for why they bypass a long time employee for the out of work guy. The truth usually is they got the ' new guy' for less money that they were already paying you. Its always about money.

I just wanted to add that post #120 wasn't a slam against VStyler that is an excellent skinner - my comment was meant in a general way to anyone that joins wc and is anxious to become a " Master "

I have to concur.

I used VStyler as an example because a lot of other people did.
No disrespect was intended.

I have also contributed many free skins to the customization community as a whole, including WB skins. I also don't remember mentioning "jumping ahead" of anyone, merely trying to better ascertain whether my own personal level of involvement in this process would be worth the rewards. I will say however , no matter how may posts you make or how much artwork you submitt, it's not going to help if your skins are not of master quality and its in that area that i utilize a good percentage of my time.

I don't believe in free rides, never taken one and im not looking for one here.




yes ive actually made a nice living for a few years with Visual styles... unfortunately with Vista on the scene the numbers are decreasing dramatically.

Im sure no one thought VS would be around forever eh? I have always planned on switching to WB sooner or later.

You guys should not misunderstand my intentions. As much as i love making people happy by skinning and enjoy it infinitely this is a business for me and as such I have to treat it in such a fashion. The reason I started skinning years ago was to teach myself something I could make a living at one day.

Im not opposed to increasing my level of involvement in the WC community in fact I am completely committed to it as my home away from home and have been for a while. Its one reason I finally enetered the GUIC. I also have what I would like to think of as a spectacular new skin in the works as a community release.

Having said that..I believe a man makes his own good fortune, I am currently working on a new strictly WB website launching soon and some commercial work still left on the VS side of things.




The Master skinner program has been a long time coming in my opinion and to those given status..More Power To Ya!


KEEP ON SKINNING!

oh..and no disrespect taken you guys..