From the Associated Press.......


By NICHOLAS PAPHITIS

Associated Press Writer

ATHENS, Greece (AP) - An anti-tank shell was fired at the U.S. Embassy early Friday, striking the front of the building but causing no injuries. A senior police official said the blast was an act of terrorism, raising fears of a resurgence of far-left Greek militant groups.

Police cordoned off streets around the heavily guarded building after the explosion shortly before 6 a.m. The shell struck the third floor and smashed glass in nearby buildings.

Investigators were examining what they believed was the device used to fire the rocket shell from a construction site near the embassy.

``This is an act of terrorism. We don't know where from,'' Attica Police Chief Asimakis Golfis said. ``There was a shell that exploded in the toilets of the building ... It was fired from street level.''

Embassy officials confirmed that an explosion had taken place and said that no one had been injured. U.S. ambassador Charles Reis said the damage was ``not extensive.''

``There can be no justification for such a senseless act of violence ... The embassy was occupied at the time (but) nobody was hurt,'' he said.

Reis said there had been no warning of the attack.

``We're treating it as a very serious attack we will determine what it is when we know (more),'' he said.

Authorities were searching apartment buildings near the U.S. Embassy and a nearby hospital for evidence.

``Such actions in the past have had a very heavy cost for the country - moral, financial and for the international standing of the country,'' said Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, who visited the embassy after the blast. ``The Greek government is determined to undertake every effort to not allow such phenomena to be repeated in the future.''

Kiosk owner Giorgos Yiannoulis described the explosion as strong.

``I heard a loud bang; I didn't realize what was going on,'' said Yiannoulis, who runs a kiosk near the embassy.

Traffic came to a standstill for more than three hours across parts of central Athens, as police and emergency services scrambled to the embassy building, which is a frequent destination for protest groups.

It was the first major attack against a U.S. target in more than a decade, following the arrest of members of Greece's far-left November 17 terrorist group. The group was blamed for killing 23 people - including U.S., British and Turkish officials - and dozens of bomb attacks.

In 2003, a special court gave multiple life sentences to November 17's leader, chief assassin and three other members. Lesser sentences were given to 10 others.

November 17 carried out a rocket attack against the U.S. embassy in 1996, causing minor damage and no injuries.

Several obscure militant groups have appeared since the November 17 members were arrested. Radical groups Revolutionary Struggle and Popular Revolutionary Action have been blamed for the bombings of three government ministries in 2005.
8,539 views 39 replies
Reply #1 Top
Hrm, I never heard about the bombings of three government ministries in 2005. It seems like the non-Islamic terrorism doesn't make the news much. Maybe, just maybe, people who believe 90% of terrorism is Islamic might, just might, not be aware of about 80% of what goes on.

I'm pretty up on the news and I don't remember this one. Evidently Greece has problems.
Reply #2 Top
. Maybe, just maybe, people who believe 90% of terrorism is Islamic might, just might, not be aware of about 80% of what goes on.


80%? No, Baker, according to reliable government sources, over 50% of the world's terrorism is Islamic...while Muslims represent about 20% of the world's terrorism.

It's one thing to demand that more of the world's terror is rooted in Islam than actually is; it's quite another to demand that LESS of it is. I'm not among those who has made positive conclusions about the evils of Islam itself, but I believe that there's much that DOES need to be examined.
Reply #3 Top
I'm not among those who has made positive conclusions about the evils of Islam itself, but I believe that there's much that DOES need to be examined.
---Gid

I am.....the MidEast as a whole is ruined becausae Islam came and perverted it. As I said on another thread of mine, the oldest known civilization in the world came from there. The Persians ruled an empire that stretched across Northern Africa, up into Southern Europe and to the Atlantic. Look what they've done with it.

Back before the Islam bomb went off, the Arabs were one of the most advanced peoples in the world, at least to the time. Sciences, mathematics, architecture. Then Mohammed talked to the voices in his head, and.....

VOILA!

They're still back there, acting like barbarians, fighting and killing over long-forgotten grievances, some that are probably 5,000 years old or better, and the resof the world has taken the Arab's advances and progressed two whole millennia in the interim.

From a post I left on another thread:

~~~You know; that's another reason to look down on this particular division of Islam. I, as a Christian, try to live a decent, loving and peaceful life that will get me to Heaven so I can live forever with Jesus, the Son of God.
These Muslim want to kill, maim and die so they can go to their heaven and prong chicks (I'd hope) for all eternity. What high goals. Shows you how repressive and controlling their faith is.
~~~

Don't tell me Islam is noble and peaceful. It's a cancer.

Reply #4 Top
Don't tell me Islam is noble and peaceful. It's a cancer.


The same can be said about any religion. It is not the belief that is bad it is the believer who misuses the words of their God that are bad. People that want power will always use a rallying point. For Hitler it was that Jews killed Christ, and are a blight on German society. Before that it was the land that belonged to Germany but once that was taken he had to clean house. For the late Saddam insane it was the land that should belong to Iraq, and then it was oil that was stolen from Iraq. He invaded Kuwait. After he did that he became a public Muslim to rally all Arabs to him as the next leader of the Arab world. Like Kaddafi, Sadat, and Nasser before him he failed. Each one used religion as the reason they needed the Arab world to support them because everyone knew that they were power hungry. The Pope used religion to rally people behind the cause of making the Pope rich. The crusades made the church rich and we are still dealing with the bloodshed of that greed. My point is don’t blame religion for their stupid actions. If it was not religion it would be something else to rally the people.
Reply #5 Top
Back before the Islam bomb went off, the Arabs were one of the most advanced peoples in the world, at least to the time. Sciences, mathematics, architecture. Then Mohammed talked to the voices in his head, and.....


You do know that the heyday of arabic architecture, science, and math was after Mohamed, don't you? As a small example, the Muslim history I'm the most familiar with: that of the Moors in Spain in the Middle Ages. Think of Alhambra, in Granada, Spain, one of the most impressive pieces of architecture pre-renaissance in all of Europe. Built? 1280-1350, by Muslim architects. University of Granada, center of physics studies in all of Europe, 1200-1500? Muslim built and operated.

Do you know who was in charge during the Middle Ages in Spain, the only extended period of time in the history of the globe where large populations of Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived side by side in relative peace for hundreds of years? It was the Arabic Moors, Muslims every single one of them. Who fucked it up? The "Christian" kings, who fought and kicked them all out.

I don't know what happened to change them from the intelligent, wise, and just rulers they once were, but your assertion that it was simply the religion and not other factors as well not only smacks of arrogance but ignorance of European history.
Reply #6 Top
"Don't tell me Islam is noble and peaceful. It's a cancer."


Ignorance is almost as ugly as hatefulness. Some people are cursed with both.
Reply #7 Top
The same can be said about any religion
---Paladin

Yes, but, well....maybe I'm a Christian supremacist, but I really can't come up with any cultures where Christ worship took root that had their heyday destroyed by its growth and spread. There may well be, but I'm not aware of them. Sorry, Paladin...you and I have to part company on this one; this is just open relativism.

For Hitler it was that Jews killed Christ
---Paladin

Hitler was an atheist; his "reason" for hating the Jews, the death of Christ, was a smokescreen to help make his attrocities more palatable to the civilized Germans.

The Pope used religion to rally people behind the cause of making the Pope rich. The crusades made the church rich and we are still dealing with the bloodshed of that greed. My point is don’t blame religion for their stupid actions. If it was not religion it would be something else to rally the people.
---Paladin

Understood, but while Christ was perfect, Christians are not; we're just as susceptible to greed and power lust as anyone else. Thing is, our God gives no direct command to kill those who disagree with or oppose us.
You do know that the heyday of arabic architecture, science, and math was after Mohamed, don't you? As a small example, the Muslim history I'm the most familiar with: that of the Moors in Spain in the Middle Ages. Think of Alhambra, in Granada, Spain, one of the most impressive pieces of architecture pre-renaissance in all of Europe. Built? 1280-1350, by Muslim architects. University of Granada, center of physics studies in all of Europe, 1200-1500? Muslim built and operatedDo you know who was in charge during the Middle Ages in Spain, the only extended period of time in the history of the globe where large populations of Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived side by side in relative peace for hundreds of years? It was the Arabic Moors, Muslims every single one of them. Who fucked it up? The "Christian" kings, who fought and kicked them all out.
---San Chonino

Granted; but did religion really have anything to with the kings "fucking it up", though? Or did they just not like sharing their continent (and taxes, power and/or citizens) with interlopers, conquerors? Other than that, what happened to the Arabs ascendancy? Where did they go? What happened to their vast empire?

I don't know what happened to change them from the intelligent, wise, and just rulers they once were, but your assertion that it was simply the religion and not other factors as well not only smacks of arrogance but ignorance of European history.


Islam happened....there has to be some reason why Christian nations prospered and grew, moving on through the centuries and ages to the 21st century, while so many of their Islamic counterparts are still stuck in the 11th, living with the same views and attitudes of those millennia-dead forebears.

Ignorance is almost as ugly as hatefulness. Some people are cursed with both.
---Baker

Ignorance? Nearly everything I've ever heard or seen about Islam is repressive, negative and very possibly purely evil.

What is it about Christ worship---a faith based in acceptance, tolerance and forebearance---that people so want to resist, smear and defile, but makes Islam, which so blatantly promotes hatred, death and intolerance, a sacred cow to be lovingly and desperately defended?

Islam is a cancer; when at last they come for you or your grandchildren and force you/them at gunpoint to worship Allah---if one is lucky enough to live even that long under their reign--- perhaps you'll all see where I'm coming from.
If attitudes of appeasement like yours are the majority, they should have no trouble at all doing so.
Reply #8 Top
but did religion really have anything to with the kings "fucking it up", though? Or did they just not like sharing their continent (and taxes, power and/or citizens) with interlopers, conquerors?


Religion had everything to do with it. They went from the most religiously tolerant country in all of Europe (under the Muslims) to one of the most religiously oppressive country in all of Europe (until 1975!). These "kings" were bullies who built little kingdoms and consequently banded together, kicking out the Muslims. And - when you've been there seven hundred years, are you an "interloper" or a "conqueror"? If that's the case, we're all "interlopers" and "conquerors" for taking over America.

Are you an interloper? A conqueror?
Reply #9 Top
"Islam is a cancer; when at last they come for you or your grandchildren and force you/them at gunpoint to worship Allah---if one is lucky enough to live even that long under their reign--- perhaps you'll all see where I'm coming from.
If attitudes of appeasement like yours are the majority, they should have no trouble at all doing so."


It should make you a little queasy to know that your rhetoric is basically the same as the people you hate, with a only few key words interchanged. Someday I hope you realize that YOUR attitude is one in the same with Muslims that call western culture a cancer. You, and them, try to whip people to your view through vilifying innocent people and frightening people into hatred.



"(_____) is a cancer; when at last they come for you or your grandchildren and force you/them at gunpoint to (_____) ---if one is lucky enough to live even that long under their reign--- perhaps you'll all see where I'm coming from.
If attitudes of appeasement like yours are the majority, they should have no trouble at all doing so."



How often have we seen speeches like that? Fill in the blanks for yourself. Vietnam, the communist scare, WW2, the Civil War, the Crusades, Pagans vs. Christians, Romans vs. Barbarians, and on, and on. I think you are a frightened, sad human being. I feel sorry for you.
Reply #10 Top
Religion is often a tool used throughout history by very bad men trying to establish their PERSONAL supremacy over others.  They always claim it's in the name of God that they do things, that they're humble men doing holy work, but it's always about personal power.  Look through the history of the western world.  Look at the Big Three (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and you will see the same pattern repeated. 

1.  If the Old Testament is anything to go by for historical information, the Jews used to be pretty big on war.  They were brutal.  Their God was a vengeful one who ordered people to kill all the time.  Go to war etc. 

2.  We have recorded history to provide us proof of Christiantiy's darker periods.  Crusades, Inquisitions, burning heretics, forcing religion on the populace through the government.

3.  And now we have this wave of Islamic extremism that looks a lot like what we've seen before in history.  Theocracies promoting the violent overthrow of the unbeliever.

The first two went through the same cycle.  They grew powerful in their regions.  So dominant that they were free to commit horrible acts in the name of God.  Anyone who disagreed was cast down.  Murder, war, all in the name of a good God.  All three pervert the core message to suite whatever needs they had at the time.  After an ascent to the heights of power, the first two slowly slid away.  There's no question that Christian power as a block is rapidly falling.  The Pope is a nice old man who wears a funny hat in most of the western world that once revered him as the spokesman of God here on earth.  And aside from conspiracy theorists, Jews aren't really seen as a force of power that they were centuries past.  They begin as oppressed minorities, grow in power, become the oppressive majority, and then steadily decline in power until they become another faith in the world.

Islam is going through the same growth pattern the other two did.  The rhetoric is the same.  The extremism is the same.  The acts just as bloody and ruthless.  If Islam is a cancerous tumor on the body of the world, does that make Christianity a tumor that has gone into remission?  Was it once a dangerous cancer that threatens the world much like people believe Islam does now?

Never confuse the religion with the faith.  Religion is the man-made construct that surrounds faith.  Faith requires no house to worship in, no book to read from.  Religion is an attempt to make us feel like we all belong to a group of similar people.  Faith is personal and doesn't require any other person for confirmation.  Faith does not inspire fear.  Faith does not confer power or control and in fact is at odds with control and power.  Religion is often a tool used by weak men to make themselves powerful.  They may even in their heart of hearts believe what they spew forth, but if a truely holy man were to walk up to them, anointed by the hand of God himself, and told these men to stand aside, to lay down their sword and go quietly away, they would either ignore the man or kill him for daring to question his power.
Reply #11 Top
Good post, Zoomba. I think it is the height of irony that we're discussing this here, when it wasn't Muslims that attacked the embassy in Greece. Nor was it Muslims most recently in Spain. Nor in Mexico City. Nor in Sri Lanka...
Reply #12 Top
1. If the Old Testament is anything to go by for historical information, the Jews used to be pretty big on war. They were brutal. Their God was a vengeful one who ordered people to kill all the time. Go to war etc.

2. We have recorded history to provide us proof of Christiantiy's darker periods. Crusades, Inquisitions, burning heretics, forcing religion on the populace through the government.

3. And now we have this wave of Islamic extremism that looks a lot like what we've seen before in history. Theocracies promoting the violent overthrow of the unbeliever.
---Zoomba

It should make you a little queasy to know that your rhetoric is basically the same as the people you hate, with a only few key words interchanged. Someday I hope you realize that YOUR attitude is one in the same with Muslims that call western culture a cancer. You, and them, try to whip people to your view through vilifying innocent people and frightening people into hatred.
---Baker

How often have we seen speeches like that? Fill in the blanks for yourself. Vietnam, the communist scare, WW2, the Civil War, the Crusades, Pagans vs. Christians, Romans vs. Barbarians, and on, and on. I think you are a frightened, sad human being. I feel sorry for you.
---Baker

Are you an interloper? A conqueror?
---San Chonino

Nah, San Cho, I was born here, thanks. I kind of like the way it is and don't want anyone coming in here and blowing me up. Why? Because they don't like me simply because of the country I live in or the God I happen to worship. They hate me, and they hate you too, as well.

Christ told his disciples that, if they can't convert the people in a certain area, kick the dust from their shoes and move on. Fundamentalist Islamics are a little more pro-active in their response. They're supposed to kill you.

It's not my religion (nation, leaders, people, etc.) that's been calling for the deaths of completely innocent people for reasons of cultural/religious hatred and intolerance. It's theirs. Fundamentalist Islam has been calling for that, and doing it, for decades. I might add that not too damn many voices from so-called "moderate" Islam have been raised in protest, either.
They've also been calling for the re-establishment of that caliphate they had back in the day, but on a worldwide scale. Can they really do it? Who cares? They want to, and are more than willing to kill lots and lots of people in the effort. Yet, people like you two continue to defend that religion.

You wondered somewhere above, San Chonino, what happened to the Arab ascendancy. As I said, Islam happened.
As I understand it, the seeds of Islam were planted around the time of that ascendancy; it took root, grew and spread....and look at the fruits of its growth. A formerly great and civilized people stuck more or less in a time warp of violence and hate; barbarians still mindlessly nursing grudges from millennia ago.

My dad always said not to keep grudges because in the end they'd burn you up; and besides, who does the grudge hurt more, you or the one you hate?
Islamic culture is one of the greatest, saddest and most practical examples of that bit of wisdom.

The Christian nations of Europe, for all their faults, nonetheless moved on and rose into prosperity and power, creating the greatest known civilization in world history, while Islam slowly destroyed everything the Arabs were (and is now working its dark magic on the peoples of Asia, as well).

Yeah, there's no difference at all between Islam and Christianity. None at all.

Christianity is a real blight.
Reply #13 Top
1. If the Old Testament is anything to go by for historical information, the Jews used to be pretty big on war. They were brutal. Their God was a vengeful one who ordered people to kill all the time. Go to war etc.

2. We have recorded history to provide us proof of Christiantiy's darker periods. Crusades, Inquisitions, burning heretics, forcing religion on the populace through the government.

3. And now we have this wave of Islamic extremism that looks a lot like what we've seen before in history. Theocracies promoting the violent overthrow of the unbeliever.
---Zoomba

It should make you a little queasy to know that your rhetoric is basically the same as the people you hate, with a only few key words interchanged. Someday I hope you realize that YOUR attitude is one in the same with Muslims that call western culture a cancer. You, and them, try to whip people to your view through vilifying innocent people and frightening people into hatred.
---Baker

How often have we seen speeches like that? Fill in the blanks for yourself. Vietnam, the communist scare, WW2, the Civil War, the Crusades, Pagans vs. Christians, Romans vs. Barbarians, and on, and on. I think you are a frightened, sad human being. I feel sorry for you.
---Baker

Are you an interloper? A conqueror?
---San Chonino

Nah, San Cho, I was born here, thanks. I kind of like the way it is and don't want anyone coming in here and blowing me up. Why? Because they don't like me simply because of the country I live in or the God I happen to worship. They hate me, and they hate you guys, as well.

Christ told his disciples that, if they can't convert the people in a certain area, kick the dust from their shoes and move on. Fundamentalist Islamics are a little more pro-active in their response. They're supposed to kill you.

It's not my religion (nation, leaders, people, etc.) that's been calling for the deaths of completely innocent people for reasons of cultural/religious hatred and intolerance. It's theirs. Fundamentalist Islam has been calling for that, and doing it, for decades. I might add that not too damn many voices from so-called "moderate" Islam have been raised in protest, either.
They've also been calling for the re-establishment of that caliphate they had back in the day, but on a worldwide scale. Can they really do it? Who cares? They want to, and are more than willing to kill lots and lots of people in the effort. Yet, people like you three continue to defend staunchly that religion and equate it with all others.

Fine...the hateful, bigotted murderous Christians had the Crusades.....what they didn't have were nuclear weapons. The Islamists nowadays, though...well....they're tryin' hard. They'll eventually have them.

You wondered somewhere above, San Chonino, what happened to the Arab ascendancy. As I said, Islam happened.
As I understand it, the seeds of Islam were planted around the time of that ascendancy; it took root, grew and spread....and look at the fruits of its growth. A formerly great and civilized people stuck more or less in a time warp of violence and hate; barbarians still mindlessly nursing grudges from millennia ago.

My dad always said not to keep grudges because in the end they'd burn you up; and besides, who does the grudge hurt more, you or the one you hate?
Islamic culture is one of the greatest, saddest and most practical examples of that bit of wisdom.

The Christian nations of Europe, for all their faults, nonetheless moved on and rose into prosperity and power, creating the greatest known civilization in world history, while Islam slowly destroyed everything the Arabs were (and is now working its dark magic on the peoples of Asia, as well).

Yeah, there's no difference at all between Islam and Christianity. None at all.

Christianity is a real blight.
Reply #14 Top
At least Bush and the rest cannot balme Islamic Terrorism for this blast.
Reply #15 Top
Obviously some people can use it as yet another excuse to insult Muslims, though.
Reply #16 Top
I think you are a frightened, sad human being. I feel sorry for you.


I'd like to second that. And happily, I won't make the mistake the same kind of mistake as RW and assume that all christians are sad, frightened, hate-obsessed bigots. This is just one man's particular hang up...

You do know that the heyday of arabic architecture, science, and math was after Mohamed, don't you?

Granted;...

Not just granted; he basically completely shot your argument out of the water, but given the choice between rational discourse and hugging your hate a little tighter, you obviously decided to ditch rational debate and just stick with the hate.

The problem here is not any particular religion; it is a particular attitude to religion based in hatred, ignorance and fear. The obvious irony is that RW, in denouncing this kind of 'false' religion - which he entirely equates with Islam - is demonstrating it himself in his own attitude.

Personally I don't much like Islam or Christianity (there are far too many 'christians' who think the way RW does), but I do not consider either of them cancers. I am too aware of the positive contributions they have made to human art, culture and society and also acknowledge that these belief systems have empowered some people, pathetically few in number, to transcend the mire of hatred, anger, ignorance and self-centredness in which most of us are largely content to wallow. I am sure that if RW really believed just 10% of what he claims to believe in, he would become a totally transformed human being...
Reply #17 Top
he basically completely shot your argument out of the water,


Thanks Chak. Not that he paid any attention to that, because what did he say later on?

San Chonino, what happened to the Arab ascendancy. As I said, Islam happened.


Except their "ascendancy" as he likes to call it happened after Mohamed. Short history lesson: Mohamed, about 500 AD. Heyday of Muslim (or Arabic, if you prefer) civilization? 1200-1500 AD. Yeah, seven hundred years later.

And you can take that to the bank, baby.
Reply #18 Top
I'd like to second that. And happily, I won't make the mistake the same kind of mistake as RW and assume that all christians are sad, frightened, hate-obsessed bigots. This is just one man's particular hang up...
---Chak

Well, guys....okay....guess I'm as wrong as my history. Sorry.
I guess Islam really IS all about love, peace freedom and acceptance. And when they finally come here and sprout a mushroom cloud, spreading destruction and fallout, both made of that same love, peace, freedom and acceptance, I hope you'll all just take the time give'em a big hug and a wet kiss. I know they'll appreciate all you've done for them.

Yeah, okay....I tried to make an argument without having a solid grasp, or enough knowledge, of my subject. I apologize for that. But that wasn't the point. You people are making your argument in a vacuum.

You want to paint Christianity of 1000+ years ago with the same brush as modern Islam. That's stupid.
Okay, Christ worship had its aggressive period; the Crusades....a long time ago. The dynamic has changed, folks.... a lot. Somewhere on JU, I once read, probably by Baker, that Islam simply hasn't had its Reformation yet, as Christianity did. When that happens, the Fundamentalists will lose some of their ooomph, and all will be swell again. Fine; well noted.

I just have two words for you: Nuclear weapons.

As I pointed out above, the Christians in the Crusades, as flawed as their attitudes were, did not possess nuclear weapons. Islamic Fundies are looking hard and long for them, and Iran, pretty much a whole government of full of Fundies, is deep into a serious program aimed in that direction. Five years at the outside. Probably less. Say goodbye to Tel Aviv and maybe Washington DC and/or NYC.

Now, would the Christians have used the nukes if they'd had them? I'd like to think not, but the point is really moot, because their invention was still a thousand years in the future. My point here is that Christianity had its Reformation and became what it became because it had the time for it to happen.

Will there be enough time for Islam to have a similar shakeup? I seriously doubt it. The Fundies will start a--hopefully limited--atomic war and millions on both sides will likely die before it gets the chance.
I mean; do you really want that to happen? If no one takes a real stand against the advance of Islamic Fundamentalism---and that includes you folks and the so-called "moderate Muslims", those who won't speak out against the mutants hijacking their faith, those that they claim to hate----it's going to.

Let's say you have two brothers, one somewhat older than the other. The older brother, well....he had his wild days; hurt some people. Used a knife. But he matured...he got smart, made a good life for himself and his family, got responsible. Made good in the world, overall.

The younger brother, though....more hot-blooded, easily offended and riled. Doesn't want to listen. Just like his older brother at about that age.
He's got himself in some trouble now, too. He hurt people, as well; but with a gun. Now, though, he's out looking for....let's say a rocket launcher, maybe.

Sure, he'll probably straighten out, too, just like his older brother; get more responsible....someday, when he's older. Thing is....right now, he's trying to get that rocket launcher. Will he have time to become mature and reseponsible, or will he use that rocket launcher that will hurt and kill lots more people and likely him, too?

That's my point. You seem to want to equate Christianity's aggressive period to the Islam Fundies of today, but you don't seem to want to realize how much things have changed in the interim.

You're all so hepped up to coddle Islam; you don't get it.

And you know, noone has yet seen fit to shoot down this question of mine:

What is it about Christ worship---a faith based in acceptance, tolerance and forebearance---that people so want to resist, smear and defile, but makes Islam, which so blatantly promotes hatred, death and intolerance, a sacred cow to be lovingly and desperately defended?


I'd really like to know.
Reply #19 Top
"Sure, he'll probably straighten out, too, just like his older brother; get more responsible....someday, when he's older. Thing is....right now, he's trying to get that rocket launcher. Will he have time to become mature and reseponsible, or will he use that rocket launcher that will hurt and kill lots more people and likely him, too?"


The problem is, YOU are muddying the waters by using the wrong "he". So long as we think our enemy is Islam, our angst will be diffuse and poorly targetted. We'll be concerned with Burqas and Halal meat and people suing over this and that.

In the meantime, the REAL enemies will move in this diffuse group with relative ease. When you hate a whole class of people, the real baddies in that group enjoy anonymity. They're just another Muslim in the "cancer", right?

As I have said elsewhere, you can trace all Muslim terrorism down to a very small area. It is political, and like Catholicism in the Middle Ages, politics uses religion to control ignorant, hateful people. They assume that not only will their minions be blinded to their real goals, the ENEMIES will, too.

So... here we have proof, frankly. I've had a challenge going for a while, and no one can point out a homegrown, American Islamic terrorist. There aren't any. All the major attacks in western nations have the thumbprint of just a couple of highly political camps within Middle East politics and organized crime.

The "they all look alike to me" mentality is killing us. It CONTRIBUTES to our demise, if that demise ever comes. It's basically civil war surgery, chopping off the whole leg and risking death instead of carefully removing the real problem.
Reply #20 Top
The problem is, YOU are muddying the waters by using the wrong "he". So long as we think our enemy is Islam, our angst will be diffuse and poorly targetted. We'll be concerned with Burqas and Halal meat and people suing over this and that.
---Baker

I have referred, over and over, in this article to ~~Islamic Fundamentalists~~. The extremeists. I do, and did, have to say that I doubt the claims of moderation from that supposed vast majority of a people that refuse to speak up against those extremists.
Islam is a cancer, Baker, it really is.....it degrades women, it teaches its adherents to hold on to past hurts rather than get over it and move on, and to kill those who disagree with its teachings.
I might point out that Christianity produced the American Democratic Ideal, while Islam produced the Taliban, and Hamas, and Hezbollah......and any number of militant groups who want to kill those who disagree with them.

So, I'm abandoning this thread....I'm obviously wrong in my opinion that the terror, destruction, crushing oppression, death and chaos Islam has brought, and will bring, to the four corners of the globe is a bad thing.
You apologists are obviously right to go on and keep cheerleading for a people, and faith, that wants to kill you and topple the civilization you live in. So, do it.

Good luck with that. See you 'round the mosque.
Reply #21 Top
"Islam is a cancer, Baker, it really is.....it degrades women, it teaches its adherents to hold on to past hurts rather than get over it and move on, and to kill those who disagree with its teachings."


It does? Oddly, I stand waiting for my little girl with Muslim women every day. They don't appear to be degraded. They don't wear burqas. I don't see bruises (though there are some redneck women I have seen quite often elsewhere with them).

I think the ignorant propaganda people like you on BOTH sides propagate is a cancer. As for "past hurts", you've got no reason to throw stones about that, methinks, since your entire philosophy here is based on such. You realize that you are just an mirror image of Al Jazeera pundits, right?

"I might point out that Christianity produced the American Democratic Ideal, while Islam produced the Taliban, and Hamas, and Hezbollah......and any number of militant groups who want to kill those who disagree with them."


The Greeks were Christians? You want a list of things I could point out that Christianity created? You sure? I think I could make a list twice as long from memory, and I could go crack some books if you like.

"So, I'm abandoning this thread....I'm obviously wrong in my opinion that the terror, destruction, crushing oppression, death and chaos Islam has brought, and will bring, to the four corners of the globe is a bad thing. "


No, you're just ignorant of the religion, ignorant of the vast majority of your fellow Americans who are Muslims and who live peacefully and probably as meaningfully as you, and you are ignorant of history. The only way to preserve that ignorance is to flee from the truth.

Reply #22 Top
So, I'm abandoning this thread....I'm obviously wrong in my opinion that the terror, destruction, crushing oppression, death and chaos Islam has brought, and will bring, to the four corners of the globe is a bad thing.


No, it's just your opinion of the religion that's wrong.

The politicos are simply using the veneer of religion to enforce their ideas. It's always, ALWAYS more powerful when "God" tells you to do it than when "persons" tell you to do it.
Reply #23 Top
The only way to preserve that ignorance is to flee from the truth.


Bye bye, RW. Say hello to the paranoidist convention for me.
Reply #24 Top
Awright.....what the hell....I'm not abandoning it.

It does? Oddly, I stand waiting for my little girl with Muslim women every day. They don't appear to be degraded. They don't wear burqas. I don't see bruises (though there are some redneck women I have seen quite often elsewhere with them).
---Baker

As I said....and said....and said, I refer to thew whacko Fundamentalists. I DO question the loyalities of so-called "moderates" who refuse to protest the actions of their mutant brethren the way they do a stupid cartoon, or some other generally ridiculous slight. When the mutants speak loudest and you say nothing in opposition, well.......

I think the ignorant propaganda people like you on BOTH sides propagate is a cancer. As for "past hurts", you've got no reason to throw stones about that, methinks, since your entire philosophy here is based on such. You realize that you are just an mirror image of Al Jazeera pundits, right?
---Baker

Yeah, yeah....whatever. Speaking of propaganda, Lord Haw-Haw, Tokyo Rose and Hanoi Hannah are in your den for a visit. Don't keep them waiting.
Tthey want to give you some tips on how best to promote the Muslim side.

And who says "methinks"? Pretentiousness is for real assholes....oh....well, you're okay, then, I guess.

The Greeks were Christians? You want a list of things I could point out that Christianity created? You sure? I think I could make a list twice as long from memory, and I could go crack some books if you like.
---Baker

No...I was referring to the merits of Christ worship over that other guy. The actual Greek civilization died out centuries before either the Christians or Islamic religions started. That makes them kind of irrelevant to this discussion, don't you think? Oh, of course not...the Great Baker deems it relevant, and so it is.

Greeks? You're the one trying to "muddy the waters" by simply ignoring my points and making your own instead.

You just can't seem to get the gist of my argument can you, Brainiac? Some people are just way too smart for their own good. The forest is right there, but the only trees you prefer to see are in the way. Here's something to practice repeating: "Allah be Praised".

You'll have no trouble getting used to it, I'm sure. In fact, you'll probably welcome it.


No, it's just your opinion of the religion that's wrong.
---San Chonino

Do me a favor: would you and Baker please stop pretending that I never used the word "fundamantalists"? It would make this so much less frustrating.
There are elements of that faith---fundamentalists---which have expressed a serious desire to eliminate both the US and Israel. Those are the ones that scare me. I'm quite aware that there are other elements....so-called "good" Muslims....that just live their lives and do whatever. They don't scare me. They don't want a nuclear bomb to use on my country. It's the ones that do....THE FUNDAMENTALISTS, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD.....that do.
I'll stop painting the whole religion with a dark color (which I didn't, really, to begin with) supposedly ignoring the good ones, if you'll stop painting the whole thing with a light one, igoring the whackos. We square now?


The politicos are simply using the veneer of religion to enforce their ideas. It's always, ALWAYS more powerful when "God" tells you to do it than when "persons" tell you to do it.
---San Chonino

Yeah, that's right....just that evil, neocon, Bushie propaganda. Iran isn't funding both sides in the Iraq conflict, and isn't looking for nukes, either. Hamas and Hezbollah are just government parties who want total freedom for the people and don't want anyone killed or wiped out.
It's all propaganda.

Bye bye, RW. Say hello to the paranoidist convention for me.
---San Chonino

My wife has a t-shirt; "Only the Paranoid Survive".


A least I can see what's coming. You guys? You won't know it when it happens.


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Reply #25 Top
"Greeks? You're the one trying to "muddy the waters" by simply ignoring my points and making your own instead."


I was referring to the line:

"I might point out that Christianity produced the American Democratic Ideal..."


For the rest of it, it is the same pablum. Why bother.