Jesus is NOT the Reason for the Season

Or, God Rest ye, Jerry Mendelbaum

from JoeUser Forums

The signs, of course, are everywhere. Jesus perched in a manger delightfully free of rats, ticks, and other vermin, while cattle stand ruminantly nearby and three wise men oversee a remarkably Caucasian Mary and Joseph fawning over a newborn babe, while shepherds with robes acquired from a store whose name is the nearest Aramaic equivalent of "the Gap" adore their new shepherd.

It's a beautiful scene, and one as fictional as that of the ever controversial Mr. Claus (who, scholars now believe, is indirectly related to Tim "the Tool Man" Taylor. The leap is reasonable, if you think about it. The tool man breaks things, the elves fix them. But I digress...). Winter solstice is the reason for the season (and pie....let us not forget the pie!), rather than Jesus.

See, the Gospels are silent on the birthday of Christ. What clues we can gather from the context of the writings would have him born, depending on which scholars you would believe, in the spring or the fall, but almost certainly NOT on December 25th. It would be remarkably convenient to date it thus, but it would also be inaccurate.

And the number of wise men present was almost certainly NOT three (more likely, three hundred. In those days, such a lengthy journey would not be undertaken by such a small party). And they almost certainly were not there just after Joseph snipped the umbilical cord. More likely, their arrival would have been closer to two years following Jesus' birth. This would explain why Herod ordered all baby boys under the age of two years old killed.

So why the celebration of Christmas? It's no secret, really. It has been documented multiple times how the holiday was adopted around the pagan winter solstice celebrations. The symbols have been explained enough that my repeating them here without citing sources would almost border on plagiarism, so I'll just leave it to you and google to figure out anything you may not know.

That brings up the question, then. Should Christians observe the holiday of Christmas? Frankly, as a pretty fundamentalist Christian, the question haunted me for awhile. There's nothing remotely Christian about Christmas. But the truth is, Christmas is in many ways a national holiday even if it has its religious roots. Now, some folks may disagree with me on this, but Christmas is potentially as ecumenical a holiday as you can get. It's a time to relax, a time to enjoy family and friends, and a time to show those family and friends how much you love them (and a time for PIE...it's all about the PIE!!!). In our fast paced world, those ideas, those concepts are badly needed. We don't take enough time to relax, we don't take enough time to show our families how much we love them, and as time gradually slips away from us, the chances become fewer and fewer for us to do so. As sobering a thought as it is, this may be the last Christmas you have to spend with some of your loved ones, so spend it wisely.

So, to answer my question: should a Christian celebrate Christmas? I'll leave it to the apostle Paul to answer that one for me:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. (Col 2:16, 17).

 

religion
7,392 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I heard yesterday that 90% of all Americans celebrate Christmas in some way. I think that basically rules out that it is a Christian holiday anymore. When you consider it was yet another replacement for pagan holidays originally, it seems that just having a holiday has always been more the point.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Interestingly, here in Egypt some Muslims celebrate Christmas. It isa chance to buy presents , which they love doing anyway, and it provides a small boost to the economy. The Christmas message, after all, does not preclude any religion:" Peace on Earth to all Good Men!"

miyte
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

Actually, the Wise men (Maji) arrived on the Feast of Epiphany (January  6), 12 days later - according to the story line.

And actually, Christmas was put on December 25th to coincide with the Pagan Holiday of the end of winter (days getting longer).  Last I heard (and I am in no way a scholar on it), Jesus was actually born in August.  About 12 BC too (I guess the calendars were not too accurate back in the day).

So let all celebrate Christmas!  The sentiment is universal, and the Holliday should be as well.  Like Thanksgiving, mankind needs a holliday to remember our fellow man, whether in the vein of the teachings of Jesus, or just to show their humanity.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
So let all celebrate Christmas! The sentiment is universal, and the Holliday should be as well. Like Thanksgiving, mankind needs a holliday to remember our fellow man, whether in the vein of the teachings of Jesus, or just to show their humanity.


Oh, I'm not arguing against its celebration. I'm just saying let's not get all sanctimonious about it as a high holy day when its roots are Pagan, rather than Christian. Let's enjoy it, but not to the point of treating it as somehow untouchable.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
"So let all celebrate Christmas! The sentiment is universal, and the Holliday should be as well. Like Thanksgiving, mankind needs a holliday to remember our fellow man, whether in the vein of the teachings of Jesus, or just to show their humanity."


...but what do you say to those who believe that anything that takes the Christ out of Christmas is "satanic"? Someone around here said that those who celebrate Christmas as anything but a Christian holiday were ignorant and shouldn't be using the word. We're told we have to use the word, then we're told that we can't apply it to anything but what they say.

Catch-22, huh? I guess people who celebrate a secular "whatevermas" should be seen and not heard.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
...but what do you say to those who believe that anything that takes the Christ out of Christmas is "satanic"? Someone around here said that those who celebrate Christmas as anything but a Christian holiday were ignorant and shouldn't be using the word. We're told we have to use the word, then we're told that we can't apply it to anything but what they say.


I say, they can't say nuthin' with their mouths full of pie!
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
(PS...I was hoping SOMEONE woulda commented on my subtitle. It is my absolute, all time favorite lyrics blooper, even if its source IS apocryphal).
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

I say, they can't say nuthin' with their mouths full of pie!

Or WhatshisnameMas Goose!

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
born in August


omg he is a leo! temperamental little shit like me then??
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
pass the pumpkin pie please Gid.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm bringing the pie! Pumpkin Custard, Yumm!
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Symbols have no more or less meaning than that which a culture places on them.  December 25th, the day and the holiday is no different.  The trees we decorate are as Christian or as Pagan as we want them to be.  I doubt there is a Christian anywhere who really thinks Jesus was born on this date, although most Christians I've talked to do think the 3 wisemen showed up in bethlehem while the baby Jesus laid in a manger.

The thing is, none of that really matters.  What matters is that those who claim to be Christian celebrate it in a Christian manner... the same with the Pagans and those who see it as nothing more than a day of sharing, for the sake of sharing.

For me, I celebrate both sides of the holiday.  To me, if you believe in Christ, you can also "believe" in Santa Claus and other Christmas traditions.  I'm not sure what screaming guitars and great string arrangements have to do with Christ's birth either, but I know Trans Siberian Orchestra has become a tradition for us. ;~D

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
As ParaTed2k says so wisely "Symbols have no more or less meaning than that which a culture places on them."

There is an interesting article on solstice celebrations at WWW Link

I think that the old ways are the best and so you will find me having a traditional observance involving a hooded cloak, a flint knife, altar and several furry animals...kidding, I was just kidding!

Actually, if we are observing a day of good will and fellowship to men, what difference does it make what we call it or when we celebrate it?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

As ParaTed2k says so wisely "Symbols have no more or less meaning than that which a culture places on them."

The significance of that is not kept in Larry's Response, and to a mere observer, it would be lost.  This (the quote) is from one who many brand an apostate.  A heretic.  Yet from him, we see the real essence of truth.

Tis the season all!  Perhaps labels are left by the way side and we just celebrate!  I am learning a new way to do just that!  The Venezuelan way!

Bye!  I have a dance to catch!

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Did somebody say pie? Please make mine chocolate.....with lots of whipped cream  

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
temujin chinggis khaan, the son of the sun, was born 25 december 1166.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJ82NpMFoE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_or3MKiU8Rw
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Something that's always bugged me, how did we come to celebrate on the 25th, anyway? Winter Solstice (the longest night of the year before they start getting shorter again) usually occurs between the 19th and the 21st.


I believe it has to do with the pagan belief in the eternal battle of lightness over darkness, the sun over the moon. They (the pagans), saw the darkness slowly winning the battle up until the Solstice. Even though the Solstice does occur a few days earlier, the ancient pagans did not notice the trend begin reversing and the days getting longer until December 25th. They interpreted this as the light starting to win the battle over the darkness, or the birth of the Sun (Son).
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: UBoB

UBob are right!

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I expect that the answer to your question lies, for me, not in the particulars surrounding Christ's actual birth but in the tradition of celebrating God with us or Emanuel.
This tradition is surrounded by good will, societal cheer, giving, charity, coming together and positive forward looking as well as sentimental memories of the past.

At a time when our society is characterized by independence, self focus, individualism, and a diminishing sense of the importance of social welfare and togetherness,

what ever the reason you celebrate

Jesus

OR

pie

it seems like a good thing to me.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
apparently some identity-challenged mongoloid (known variously as 'Scyth (yakut)', 'the legacy of genghis khan' and--my personal fave--'the spiritual qualities of the Mongols') possesses information relating to this topic.

a secret of xanaxdu, perhaps?