Vatican Idol

why does the Roman Catholic Church defy the Lord and Scripture?

The 1st commandment of the Lord reads that we shall not worship any false gods in place or in leiu of Him. The Catholic Church, who claims to be the true church, mostly based on a loose interpretation of a vague phrase, blatnatly defies the Lord's commandment.

They defy the Lord when they openly worhip and pray to Jesus's mother, Mary and the folks whom the corrupt college of cardinals deem to be a "saint." They try to justify it thru dogmatic decrees and writings to their naive and manipulated flock. It is truly a shame that the western world's largest representation of it's faith has failed the Lord and it's membership by advocating Idol worship.

And that's all the praying to saints and Mary are. None of them are God. Christ himself instructed his apostles to walk away from their families and follow only the Lord.

If one is to believe the Bible, rather than the political interpretations of a few closeted homosexual dudes in robes, they find the following:

Acts 21:25 "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols,."

Deut. 4:16... "that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman"

1 Cor. 12:2, "You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led."

The Bible makes no distinctions between any idols. It doesn't matter who sanctions them or who approves here on earth. But what about Mary? what about other kinds of "idol worship" does the roman Catholic Church endorse?

If one has an image of Mary then it is Mary who is venerated, just as much as an image of Jesus. Nowhere do we see this practice in the New Testament, but we do have many warnings about it. Indeed, nowhere does God approve of any type of worship toward any objects that are even of Himself, neither the tabernacle which housed His presence, nor the ark which had the tablets, were to be worshipped. Yet these were some of the most sacred objects used toward God. When Moses lifted up the Brazen altar in the wilderness for people to be healed by the bite of the serpents. Later on, when the Israelites entered the land of Canaan, they brought the bronze serpent with them and turned it into an idol. It was used until King Hezekiah finally destroyed it (2 Kings 18:4). We see that something that was even used by the Lord can be turned into a superstitious idol.

When will Catholics own up to following a false church? Will they ever break the spell that the Church puts on them in their youth or at moments of weakness and vulnerability? The Lord warned us of false prophets. He didn't warn us about obviously evil people and things because he trusted man's ability to reason and see the obvious. The false prophets the Lord warned us about were the ones who would come as a beacon "of light." the prophets the Lord warned us of would be the ones that would seem to be real messengers from the Lord. Messengers and prophets like the ones that make up the Catholic Church.
16,647 views 69 replies
Reply #1 Top

It would behoove you to understand a subject before pontificating on it.  You are dead wrong on all counts here.  No one worships Mary or the saints.  Catholic ask for their intercession in their prayers, but to do not pray to them, nor to their statues.

That you can find anecdotal evidence of a Catholic here or there that may is no indication of the teachings of the the Church, nor of its tenets.

This is the poorest excuse for an article as it contains no factual data, and only slurs and opinions of what you want them to do, not what they actually do.

Reply #3 Top

i disagree guy..thank you for your opinion

You disagree with facts?  That is not my opinion.  You can check out the tenets of the Catholic church on line any time you want to (and I would suggest it).

Reply #4 Top
Dr Guy's right. The prayers used to pray to Mary and the saints ask for intercession. Catholics don't treat them as gods.

What are you basing your opinion on? Have you discussed this with a Catholic priest, monk or nun? I'd advise doing that, because at least you can get the official story rather than the highly partisan reports of the pagan press.
Reply #5 Top
full article here...[link="http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html"]WWW Link">Link


Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her."

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.

For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

ALL-HOLY -- Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)

Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".

Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".

In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.

In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)

PERPETUAL VIRGINITY -- Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ("Catechism" 496-511)

Matthew 1:24-25 says, "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." "Till" (until) means that after that point, Joseph did "know" (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and had a son.)

Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, "

And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"

Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.

I was always taught that "brothers" and "sisters" were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)

MOTHER OF GOD -- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism" 963, 971, 2677).

The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

Colossians 1:16-17 says,

"For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".

John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first -- not Mary.

MOTHER OF THE CHURCH -- Mary is the Mother of the Church. "Catechism" 963, 975).

Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.

"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to "Mary", but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as "Mary the mother of Jesus" to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)

It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus' mother.

ASSUMPTION -- At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)

CO-MEDIATOR -- Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. ("Catechism" 968-970, 2677)

There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, "In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."

If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.

QUEEN OF HEAVEN -- God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. ("Catechism" 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. ("Catechism" 971, 2675)

Psalm 148:13 says, "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven." This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)

When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.

COMPARING CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ABOUT MARY
WITH MODERN GODDESS WORSHIP

Goddess worship is not ancient history. It is going on today. It is practiced in Wicca and a variety of modern pagan religions. (Wicca is a religion based on witchcraft. It involves goddess worship, rituals and spells.)

The credibility of goddess worship has been increased through its acceptance by university professors and its incorporation into textbooks. Wiccan doctrines are being promoted in publicly funded, accredited colleges and universities. Nursing school textbooks are overtly promoting goddess worship, including textbooks written by the National League for Nursing (an accrediting agency for nursing schools). (Note 16)

In the following table, I will compare Catholicism's version of Mary with the goddess who is worshiped by Wiccans and modern pagans. My reason for doing this is that Wiccans and modern pagans live in modern America. If I compared Catholic doctrine about Mary with the goddess worship of ancient civilizations, it would seem remote and far removed from the real world. It would seem like a legend instead of real life.

As we will see later in this article. Overt goddess worship has infiltrated a number of main-line Protestant denominations. There have been some conferences in which Catholics and representatives of various Protestant groups worshiped the goddess Sophia and openly said that Jesus Christ is irrelevant. (Later in this article I will give some detailed information about those conferences, along with Internet addresses of articles about them.)

All Christian groups need to guard against goddess worship. According to the Bible, God's people are not supposed to worship any other deities. The Old Testament prophets often rebuked the people of Israel for worshiping "foreign gods." The people who worshiped the goddess Sophia at those conferences were doing the same kind of thing that the ancient Israelites did. They claimed to be God's people, but they were worshiping a "foreign god." (In this case, a goddess rather than a god.)

The following table compares the Mary of Roman Catholic theology and religious practices with the Biblical portrayal of Mary and with the goddess who is worshipped by Wiccans. If you do an Internet search for “Queen of Heaven,” you will find two kinds of websites--Catholic and Wiccan. You can also find websites showing that Wiccans call themselves the “hidden children” of their goddess. (Note 17 tells how to find them.)


BIBLICAL MARY
CATHOLIC MARY
THE GODDESS

Humble and obedient. Calls herself "the handmaid of the Lord."
The Pope officially gave Mary the title "Queen of Heaven" and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven.
Wiccans call their goddess the "Queen of Heaven".

Knew she needed a savior: "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour." (Luke 1:47)
"Immaculate Conception" (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and "All-Holy" (Mary lived a sinless life).
Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules.

Normal wife and mother who had other children.
"Perpetual Virginity" (Jesus' brothers and sisters are considered to be cousins).
Goddesses don't have human children.

No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person.
"Glorious Assumption" (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).
Goddesses don't die.

Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother.
Catholics are the adopted children of Mary. "Woman behold your son" (John 19:26) is taken to apply literally to every Catholic.
Witches are the adopted, "hidden children" of the Queen of Heaven.

Normal woman.
Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head.
Moon goddess.

Normal woman.
Supernatural (apparitions accompanied by miracles and healings).
Supernatural.

Points people to Jesus. Mary said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." (John 2:5)
Can make Jesus do things. A full page newspaper ad showing Mary and Jesus says, "He hasn't denied her anything in 2,000 years. What would you have her ask Him?" This is not official Catholic doctrine but it is a widespread attitude which is encouraged by pious literature.
Points to herself.

Wants to be worshipped.

Knew that she needed a savior. (Luke 1:47)
Apparitions of "Mary" have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. The Catholic Church has not officially approved of these practices, but it has also not discouraged them.
Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas).

Goddesses don't need a savior.




Goddess worship has infiltrated main-line Christian denominations. In November 1993, a Re-Imagining Conference was held in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Most of the 2,000 participants were women. This ecumenical church conference was sponsored by and attended by members of over a dozen denominations, including Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists. They prayed to Sophia, the goddess of Wisdom, calling her their Creator. They did rituals for this goddess, including a communion service where bread and wine were replaced by milk and honey. They openly rejected the doctrines of the incarnation and the atonement. This conference was repeated in 1996, 1998 and 2000. (Note 18).

There are Wiccan web sites with web pages devoted to individual goddesses. The Virgin Mary is included among the goddesses of the following web sites: The Spiral Goddess Grove, The White Moon, and Goddess 2000. They consider Mary to be the "Divine Feminine" and say that for centuries, many people have "blended" their ancient goddesses with Mary. (Note 19)

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

How did modern Catholic doctrine about Mary wander so far away from the teachings of the Bible and the Early Fathers? Two reasons are the importance given to Church tradition and the doctrine of papal infallibility.

The Catholic Church officially states that Church tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. ("Catechism" 80, 84, 86, 97) The problem is that Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. ("Catechism" 78, 98, 113, 2650, 2661) It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can’t really put your hands on exactly what it is.

The Early Fathers used Scripture as the standard against which they tested Church tradition. The modern Catholic doctrine that Church tradition is equal in authority with the Bible is contrary to the writings of the Early Fathers. (Note 20)

According to Jesus, Scripture is the plumb line for measuring everything else. He judged religious traditions by comparing them to Scripture. When religious traditions contradicted Scripture, he condemned them. This shows clearly that nothing is equal in authority to Scripture. The Bible stands alone as the standard by which all other things are to be judged.

"Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:1-13)

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. ("Catechism" 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050)

The Catholic Church teaches that when the bishops officially teach doctrine relating to faith and morals, then God supernaturally prevents them from making any errors. This is called "infallibility". It applies to official councils, such as the Second Vatican Council. It also applies to other teachings, as long as the bishops and the Pope are in agreement about them. ("Catechism" 890, 891, 939, 2033, 2034, 2049)

The Pope is said to be infallible whenever he makes an official decree on matters of faith and morals. According to Catholic doctrine, it is impossible for the Pope to teach false doctrine. Catholics are expected to obey the Pope without question even when he is not making an "infallible" statement about doctrine. They are expected to submit their wills and minds to the Pope without question. ("Catechism" 892, 2037, 2050)

The Early Fathers, and the theologians and canon lawyers of the Middle Ages, never taught that the bishops or the Pope were infallible. This is demonstrated by the fact that in 680 A.D. the Sixth Ecumenical Council condemned a pope as a heretic. It was not until the fourteenth century that the theory of infallibility began to emerge. With the development of this theory came a change in the interpretation of some biblical passages. (Note 21)

The history of the early Church shows that the Bishop of Rome was considered to be just another bishop. For example, Pope Gregory (590-604 A.D.) explicitly stated that all of the bishops were equal. He specifically repudiated the idea that any one bishop could be the supreme ruler of the Church. (Note 22)

The claim for papal infallibility does not stand up to the test of history. For example, Pope Zosimus (417-418 A.D.) reversed the pronouncement of a previous pope. He also retracted a doctrinal pronouncement that he himself had previously made. Pope Honorious was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council (680-681 A.D.). He was also condemned as a heretic by Pope Leo II, as well as by every other pope until the eleventh century. So here we have "infallible" popes condemning another "infallible" pope as a heretic. In 1870, the First Vatican Council abolished "infallible" papal decrees and the decrees of two "infallible" councils. (Note 23)

In the seventeenth century, the Catholic church officially condemned Galileo as a heretic because he taught that the earth revolves around the sun. This did not conflict with the Bible or with the teachings of the Early Fathers. However, it was contrary to seventeenth century Catholic theology. The Greek philosopher Aristotle taught that the sun revolves around the earth. Aristotle influenced Thomas Aquinas, a thirteenth century theologian and "doctor of the Church" whose theology had a major impact on the Catholic Church. Some modern astronomers believe that Galileo was right. Others believe that Einstein's theory of relativity makes the question irrelevant. (Note 24) Either way, Galileo was not a heretic for disagreeing with Aristotle. The "infallible" pronouncement of the Catholic Church regarding Galileo's teaching was wrong.

Have you ever wondered what an “infallible” papal declaration is really like? Here is an example of one.

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX declared the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. After defining the dogma, the Pope said that if any person dares to "think otherwise than as has been defined by us" they thereby shipwreck their faith, are cut off from the Church, and stand condemned because of it. The Pope went on to say that if any person says, or writes, or in any other way outwardly expresses "the errors he thinks in his heart," then they thereby "subject themselves to the penalties established by law". (Note 25 gives a link to this papal bull. You can read it for yourself.)

The Pope's reference to legal penalties is significant because a man had been executed for heresy 28 years before this papal bull was issued. In 1826, a Spanish schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 26)

MARIAN APPARITIONS

On May 13, 1981, a man shot Pope John Paul II. As the ambulance carried him to the hospital, the Pope kept praying, "Mary, my mother! Mary, my mother!" One year later, the Pope made a pilgrimage to Fatima to thank Our Lady of Fatima for saving his life and to consecrate the entire human race to her. (Note 27) The video "Catholicism: Crisis of Faith" shows the Pope kissing the feet of a statue of Mary. (Note 28)

Millions of pilgrims go to shrines which honor apparitions of Mary. Every year fifteen to twenty million pilgrims go to Guadalupe in Mexico, five and a half million go to Lourdes in France, five million go to Czestochowa (Jasna Gora) in Poland, and four and a half million go to Fatima in Portugal. Special dates draw huge crowds. On August 15, half a million pilgrims go to Czestochowa. On October 13, a million people go to Fatima. On December 12, 1999, five million pilgrims went to Mexico to honor Our Lady of Guadalupe. (Note 29)

Are these pilgrims worshipping Mary? You can observe them and see for yourself, thanks to a video entitled "Messages from Heaven". (Information about this video is given following the Bibliography.)

If you watch the video, you will see the Pope bow in front of a painting of Mary and cover the area with incense. You will see a million pilgrims walking in a procession, following a statue of Our Lady of Fatima and singing songs in her honor. You will see several million people in a procession following a painting of Our Lady of Guadalupe. You will see people weeping and raising their arms towards Mary. You will see the largest assembly of bishops and cardinals since the Second Vatican Council, gathered together to join Pope John Paul II in solemnly consecrating the entire world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. (You can watch this video online.) (Note 30)

KINDS OF WORSHIP

There are many traditional ways of expressing devotion to Mary. You can read about some of them online and decide for yourself whether or not these constitute worship. (Note 31)

Catholic theologians speak of three degrees of homage, which have Latin words. “Latria” is the kind of worship which is due to God alone. “Dulia” is appropriate for honoring the saints. “Hyperdulia” is appropriate for honoring Mary. It is higher than “dulia” but not “latria”. Therefore, Catholic theologians say that Catholics do not worship Mary.

However, in the practical, down-to-earth, real world, these theological distinctions don’t work. Most Catholics have never heard of these words. Of those who have, how many know how to apply them in practical ways? Catholics are not told how to engage in “hyperdulia” without crossing a line that results in actually practicing “latria” towards Mary without realizing it.

When asked about praying to Mary and the saints, I always used to say that actually I was just asking them to pray for me, like I would ask a friend. Well, that is not really accurate, because when I talk to my friends I am not talking to people who have died. Also, I just ask them directly for what I want. I would never begin talking to my friends by saying something like: “Hail holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.”

I personally participated in many kinds of Marian devotions. (“Marian” means something relating to the Virgin Mary.) I prayed the Rosary, which uses beads to keep track of the prayers. There are ten “Hail Mary’s” for every “Our Father” (the Lord’s Prayer). The words of the Hail Mary are: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

I wore the Brown Scapular (two pieces of cloth attached with strings, worn in honor of Mary). I also wore the Miraculous Medal. Both the Brown Scapular and the Miraculous Medal resulted from apparitions of Mary. There are special prayers associated with them. The apparitions of Mary promised to help people who were faithful to these devotions. I went to special services where we recited litanies (a series of titles honoring her), prayed to her, and sang songs in her honor, or else recited the words of the songs. I participated in a procession where people carried a statue of Mary, and we all followed it, singing songs in her honor. I visited several Marian shrines. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of some day going to Lourdes.

I did not realize that what I was doing was actually a form of worship. I thought that it was pleasing to God. I thought that Jesus wanted us to honor His mother in this way.
Reply #6 Top

So you refused to read the creed or tenets and instead relied on biased sites.

Good for you.  You are now a puppet of them, and basically ignorant.  In a way I am sorry for you.  You seemed to be intelligent.  But then I am known to make mistakes.

Have a nice life in your otherworld.  You know nothing of catholicism, and your prejudice does jaundice you.

Reply #7 Top
Dr Guy's right. The prayers used to pray to Mary and the saints ask for intercession. Catholics don't treat them as gods.


If you want to get into semantics....


Reply #8 Top
The real problem with any organized religion is that it is left to man to translate and understand teachings of people long gone for many of years.

I disagree with your assertions.
Reply #9 Top
If you want to get into semantics....


I am going to offer comment in the same vein as your silly retort.

Putz!  
Reply #10 Top
m going to offer comment in the same vein as your silly retort.


Retort? It was humor, sarcasm.

Putz!


Nope, no thanks. I'm not.
Reply #11 Top

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.


I've never heard that one. It's totally unfamiliar. Where in the rosary is it recited? I'm familiar with 'Hail Mary' but not 'Hail Holy Queen'. Perhaps it's just a US thing.
Reply #12 Top
Retort? It was humor, sarcasm.


Then why bother? Someone took the time to write out a thought out article, albeit one I don't agree with. Others took the time to comment and all you have to offer is sarcasm. Why bother?

I'm familiar with 'Hail Mary' but not 'Hail Holy Queen'. Perhaps it's just a US thing.


How To Pray The Rosary:

Make the Sign of the Cross and say the "Apostles' Creed."
Say the "Our Father."
Say three "Hail Marys."
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the First Mystery; then say the "Our Father."
Say ten "Hail Marys," while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the Second Mystery; then say the "Our Father." Repeat 6 and 7 and continue with Third, Fourth and Fifth Mysteries in the same manner.

After the Rosary:
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
V.[/B] Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
[B]R.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.
After each decade say the following prayer requested by the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima: "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy."

As suggested by the Pope John Paul II the Joyful mysteries are said on Monday and Saturday, the Luminous on Thursday, the Sorrowful on Tuesday and Friday, and the Glorious on Wednesday and Sunday (with this exception: Sundays of Christmas season - The Joyful; Sundays of Lent - Sorrowful) WWW Link

As a child I remember going through the prayes but I don't remember the part after the rosary because we were never required to memorize it. That doesn't mean I agree with Sean on his interpretation of the words.
Reply #13 Top
The idols thing is a matter of the definition of 'worship', so there's no coming to agreement on that. If I could wedge in the middle, I think I can clarify what people don't understand. I can't answer it, but I can tell you WHAT they don't understand.

You see in order to become a saint, or, frankly, the 'holy virgin', you have to meet specific criteria. The criteria for Mary was built into prophesy and expanded upon later by retroactive revelation. The criteria for saints has been honed by the church over 2000 years, right up until vatican II when they tossed out a bunch.

Here's the thing. To most people, it appears that this sets up a heirarchy within the human race. We're not talking about just people and God anymore. You have people, you have God, and you have these special people who were either blessed or gifted with the ability to do greater things, miracles, etc.

In a doctrinal sense, this sets up a problem. The whole New Testament vibe was one of populism. No longer do we have the holy of holies and the levites who can touch the arc and we can't, yadda yadda. It's just us and God.

Then... comes the Catholic Church. To many it looks like in order to validate its power and create a position for itself, it has begun to have its own demi-gods of sorts. Now you just don't talk to God, you get father so-and-so who died 200 years ago to put a good word in for you.

I don't want to offend or be disrespectful, but it seems so transparent to me where the Catholic Church has created a necessary place for itself between man and God to perpetuate its power. You can't be born long without needing them, you can't die without needing them, and in between you'd better be using their services.

What if they were a business? How would it be received if a pharmaceutical company situated itself so that people were reliant on them for their very lives, based upon studies and literature that they, THEMSELVES, authored? Wouldn't people stop and think maybe, just maybe, they'd set themselves up a pretty good position?

You can't separate modern church doctrine from all the indulgences and Borgia-style opportunism that went into creating it. Granted we have theologians who have SUBSEQUENTLY found good reasons (some would say excuses) for these rituals and traditions, but in the end they were made to consolidate the Catholic Church's authority and necessity in the every day life of its members, and that's what they do.

To me, and many others, that is granting moral men and their rituals and trappings divine power, and that is idolatry. They became part of the God-Man equation through their own political mechanizations. So there in an overgrown nutshells is my take on the problem.
Reply #14 Top
BakerStreet


That is probably the best way I have ever heard anyone say it. True it is more like a business than a church but that could be said about many faiths. Not because that is the true teachings of the church but because it is one persons understanding of what faith is all about.

Frankly, I don't go to church because I am tired of seeing people who show up to hear a message that goes in one ear and out the other. If you choose to go to church to say that you have been then you are doing it for all the wrong reasons. If you pretend to be all sanctimonious while there and then go forth to live a life quite the opposite then why bother to show up.

As far as the Catholic Church goes I could really take it or leave it. I think most churches have lost sight of the real purpose. They are too filled with people who just show up and Priests who would rather be doing something else. I actually long for the days when I was ignorant of all of the dogma and enjoyed church.
Reply #15 Top

I don't want to offend or be disrespectful, but it seems so transparent to me where the Catholic Church has created a necessary place for itself between man and God to perpetuate its power. You can't be born long without needing them, you can't die without needing them, and in between you'd better be using their services.


True. But I still think they're better than the evangelists. At least you know the Catholic Church will be there at birth, death, and everywhere in between. They're not just in it for the cash windfall.
Reply #16 Top
"True. But I still think they're better than the evangelists. At least you know the Catholic Church will be there at birth, death, and everywhere in between. They're not just in it for the cash windfall."


I can't really see how you can say that. They'll be there like Microsoft will be there when you need an OS or Wal Mart when you need socks, and those corporations do altruistic things, too. Is that charity, or just perpetuating their position?

At the very least the evangelicals don't claim you have to have them or your soul is damned, right? This goes back to what changed with Jesus' crucifixion. Did we remove the 'veil' between God and man as it is said, or did we just replace the Hebrew priesthood with the Catholic priesthood?

Whether evangelicals molest kids more than Catholics or whether the local preacher will show up when you are sick isn't the point here. The point is whether religion, i.e. the trappings, the ritual, the political mechinizations, etc., are necessary and 'of God', or are they man made and superfluous.

If they say you burn in hell without them, one would imagine they aren't superfluous, and that these material and mortal things have divine power. To me, that's idolatry.
Reply #17 Top

At the very least the evangelicals don't claim you have to have them or your soul is damned, right?


Really? I don't know of a single Christian group that says non-Christians aren't damned...except the Catholic Church.

The point is whether religion, i.e. the trappings, the ritual, the political mechinizations, etc., are necessary and 'of God', or are they man made and superfluous.


They can't be both? I honestly don't understand why trappings can't be at one and the same time superfluous for some and necessary for others.
Reply #18 Top
Then why bother? Someone took the time to write out a thought out article, albeit one I don't agree with. Others took the time to comment and all you have to offer is sarcasm. Why bother?


Well, it's backed up sarcasm/humor. I mean, like what's being said. You've got prayers that raise saints and such to "god like" status. You glorify them, like another idol, and ask them to intercede. Why not go to God?
Reply #19 Top
Why not go to God?


Humility is the response to that, I think. As sinners who feel inadequate and unworthy of dealing directly with God you might feel it necessary to ask an intermediary to speak on your behalf.

It's the basis of any priest's rationale for existence. People don't feel they can reach God on their own so they raise one amongst them to quasi-godhood as an intermediary and spiritual leader.
Reply #20 Top
"Really? I don't know of a single Christian group that says non-Christians aren't damned...except the Catholic Church."


Wait, catholics don't believe that non-Christians aren't going to hell? They don't believe most protestants are going to hell? That's odd. Could you back that up with doctrine?

Please, make me understand how Protestants believe that they require church sacraments are necessary for salvation more than Catholics. You will find some that believe that baptism is, but a lot don't even believe that. I know many Christians that believe you don't ever need to set foot in a church to go straight to heaven when you die.

You're saying that's not accurate?

"They can't be both? I honestly don't understand why trappings can't be at one and the same time superfluous for some and necessary for others."


In a religion you'd invent they could be. Could you point out the Catholic doctrine that makes it so in reality? Or are you just making this stuff up off the top of your head?

I understand that you're talking about the reality of what you believe and it could well be true, but Catholicism rejects reality on a daily basis in favor of 2000 years of bureaucracy. You can make up anything you want for your beliefs, but you have to admit there's been a machine actively defining Catholic beliefs for, oh, quite some time...
Reply #21 Top
Could you point out the Catholic doctrine that makes it so in reality?


Well there's the religious orders. They have vastly more requirements on them than the laity but don't have any greater guarantee of heaven. As far as I know they are called to the priesthood/monastery/nunnery, so it's God's desire that some do more for the same reward.

That's just logic though. Catholic doctrine is far too impenetrable and boring for me.

Wait, catholics don't believe that non-Christians aren't going to hell?


Yeah Pope John Paul announced years ago that good people go to heaven (missing the centuries-old qualifier of good Catholic people). I'm surprised you didn't hear about it. Apparently you only go to hell if you reject the word of God.

Anyway Catholic scholars don't even seem too convinced that hell exists in the first place, or at least that seems to be the case in Australia. The archbishops preach a very different doctrine to the Cardinal, and the priests something different again.

I honestly think the idea of Catholic unity is a total sham. Only non-Catholics could think the Church is monolithic. I can't see how anyone could compare a Roman Catholic with an Irish Catholic with an African Catholic with an East Timorese Catholic with a Latin Catholic and say there's no room for diversity or totally different opinions in the Church. African priests can marry, ET priests have basically taken on much of the island's animist background and the Irish are, well, the Irish.

Maybe you're right though, Bakerstreet. Maybe Catholicism is a massive monolithic faith where you must complete all the rites on schedule or face eternal damnation, a faith where the merest deviation is punished with hellfire. I'm not nearly as interested in religion as others. But I don't feel that that church is the church that I was raised in, nor do I see such a monolith guiding the paths of the many Catholics I know. We can't all be heretics.
Reply #22 Top
SConn1 -----You certainly have some erroneous ideas about Catholicism.

Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or any of the saints in heaven. Yes, We do venerate and honor them ....always by invoking their intercession usually through prayer. All through the Bible you will find God conferring favors through the prayers of others. St. James told us the prayer of a just man availeth much.....how much more the prayer of Blessed Mary? St. James also tells us to pray for one another. Why did St. Paul write to the Thessalonians "For the rest Brethren, Pray for us that the word of God may run and may be glorified, even as among you. and that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men...". Why did he not that ask that directly of God instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians?

The earliest extant prayer to Our Blessed Mother Mary dates back to the early 200's..."Beneath your protection we fly o Holy Mother of God. In our necessities, despise not our petitions, but always deliver us from all dangers, oh glorious Blessed VIrgin."
This and many other Christian invocations of the Blessed Mary and the saints were not a prayer of worship. It's a prayer asking for intercession and it's rooted in the Biblical principle expressed by St.Paul. "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior." 1Tim.2:1-4.

Catholics believe that the Blessed MOther and all the saints are in heaven expriencing everlasting LIFE. They who are in heaven are alive to God. Just as St. Paul asked the other disciples to pray for him, now, we can ask him and the other saints to intercede for us with God in heaven....this is what we call the communion of saints....and goes with the Mystical Body of CHrist. This goes to the image of the vine and its branches. This is a metaphor of our relationship with Christ. He being the vine, we being the branches that live through Him. If we are connected to Christ, then we are also connected to one another. Those who die and go to Heaven are not cut off from the vine. The saints remain as branches and they remain related to us on earth. Rom. 15:30; Eph. 6:18.

The Bible offers scriptural warrant to the veneration and invocation of the saints, of which the BLessed Mother is the greatest of saints.
1st--the veneration offered angels---Jos. 15:14; Dan. 8:17; Tob. 12:16. St. Matt. 18:10; 1 cor. 13:12; 1St.John 3:2.
The ancient Jews believed in the intercession of saints. 2Deceased men, Onias and the prophet Jeremiah, interceded with fGod for the Jews, 2Macc 15:11-16 Jeremiah himself wrote that Moses and Samuel made intercession for the Jews apparently meaning after their deaths, Jer. 15:1.

ANother one from St. Mark 12:26-27 shows those in heaven are quite awake, and aware---"And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how god said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living, you are quite wrong."

Catholics pray to the Blessed Mother becasue God wills that we should do so and bexasue such prayers to her are of the utmost value. God often wills to give certain favors only on condition that we go through some secondary agent. Sodom was to be spared through the intercession of Abraham, Naaman the leper, was to be cured only through the waters of the Jordan. The Blessed Virgin is the mother of Christ. If I desire to pray, I can certainly pray to God directly. Would you blame me if I would ask my own earthly mother to pray for me also. Such a request is really a prayer from her that she might intercede for me to God. Certainly, if I met the mother of Christ on earth, I would ask her to pray for me and she would do so. And in her more perfect state in Heaven, she is not less able to help me???? Doesn't the Bible say that if we want to ask God for a favor or blessing, someone else praying to God, 2 people praying for the same favor are better than one? When the other one praying is Christ's own mother, and she is pleasing to God, He will be ready to grant her requests.
Reply #23 Top
""For the rest Brethren, Pray for us that the word of God may run and may be glorified, even as among you. and that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men...". Why did he not that ask that directly of God instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians?"


Asking living people to pray for you is the same as asking dead people? What's the difference between a saint and an average dead person, out of curiosity? If they aren't more than the regular person, why not just ask anyone? You have a reason to designate them as particularly important, right?

If they ARE more, then you have to admit they have more clout with God than the average, and that makes them more than just people, right? Or does God listen to them more than he listens to us? Some would call that a demi-god, you use the word saint. What's the difference?
Reply #24 Top
Jesus taught us how to pray. It's in Matt Chap 6.

Our Father which art in heaven.......


never are we to pray to another......

it's very clear....there is only one mediator between God and man and that mediator is Jesus Christ.



Reply #25 Top
SConn1 writes: They defy the Lord when they openly worhip and pray to Jesus's mother, Mary and the folks whom the corrupt college of cardinals deem to be a "saint." They try to justify it thru dogmatic decrees and writings to their naive and manipulated flock. It is truly a shame that the western world's largest representation of it's faith has failed the Lord and it's membership by advocating Idol worship.

AGAIN, YOUR understanding of Catholicism is incorrect.
(It seems to me that the western world is mired in paganism, both old and neo, it's members advocate idol worship in money, self, power, fame, pleasure, the profane, etc, etc.).

The Church celebrates the feast of All Saints on Nov. 1st. Saints are people who lived heroic lives of virtue. They are, in most cases, ordinary people from every walk and condition of life. When people like St. Thomas More, St. Thomas aquinas, St. Stephen, deacon and 1st martyr, stoned to death in 36 A.D., St. Francis of Assisi, St. Bernadette, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Therese of Lisieux, whom St. Pius X called the greatest saint of modern times. People like these live such holy lives that we are compelled to admire them and acknowledge that the world owes them much.
Once the Church is asked to say whether such a person is worthy to be honored as a Saint, she then goes about carefully collecting all possible information, and after due consideration, declares yes or no. The Church has never proclaiimed anyone a saint who has not been 100% worthy of that honor. The CC canonizes only those whose heroic virtues have been proved.

The CC critically examines the life of the candidate for sainthood. Before the Pope defines that a given soul is indeed a Saint, the advocates of the cause must prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the person in question exercised all Christian virtues in a heroic degree--supreme faith, hope and charity, perfect prudence, justice fortitude and temperance. God's own testimony is given, His guarantee, by a miracle(s) wrought through the person's intercession is required. Proof that miracles have been obtained through the intercession of a candidate for Sainthood is a necessary condition of canonization.

God's First Commandment is that He alone shall receive divine honor and worship and adoration. Every Catholic accepts this as one of the basic truths of Catholicism. The Church forbids giving divine honor or worship to the Blessed Mother, to Angels and Saints for this belongs to God alone.
Nowhere does God state that those of His creatures who are nearest and dearest to Him shall not be proportionately honored for His sake. Devotion to Our Blessed Lady Mary is and always has been an integral part of Catholicism. By practicing it, the Church simply follows the example of God Himself -- who chose her from among all the women of all time to be His Mother, and of Christ who from the Cross commended all men into her keeping. The King of Heaven and earth will certainly not close His ears to the requests of His mother and the mother of all men will certainly not fail to harken to the prayers of her children and bring them to her Son.

It is clear from Scripture that the angels intercede and pray for men and so do their companions the Saints in heaven. The Saints are filled with intense love of their fellow men for Christ's sake. They also have great power with God because they have passed through their time of trial and are wholly pleasing to Him. It is not unreasonable therefore, that the Church Militant, from the beginning have begged the intercession of the Saints. Devotion to them in the bond of communion life of the Mystical Body has been fostered and strengthened. The history of the CHurch is full of instances in which Our Lady and the Saints have responded to prayers offered through their intercession.

Here is our prayer of spiritual pilgrimage with His Holiness Pope Benedict on his pastoral visit to Turkey Nov. 28-Dec. 1, 2006
Heavenly Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name, we humbly ask that you sustain, inspire, and protect your servant, Pope Benedict XVI, as he goes on pilgrimage to Turkey---a land to which St. Paul brought the Gospel of your Son; a land where once the Mother of your Son; the seat of Wisdom dwelt; a long where faith in your Son's true divinity was definitively professed. Bless our Holy Father, who comes as a messenger of truth and love to all people of faith and good will dwelling in this land so rich in history. In the power of the Holy Spirit, may this visit of the Holy Father bring about deeper ties of understanding, cooperation, and peace among Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, and those who profess Islam. May the prayers and events of these historic days greatly contribute both to greater accord among those who worship you, the living and true God, and also to peace in our world so often torn apart by war and sectarian violence.
We also ask,O Heavenly Father, that you watch over and protect Pope Benedict and entrust him to the loving care of Mary, under the title of Our Lady of Fatima, a title cherished both by Catholics and Muslims. Through her prayers and maternal love, may Pope Benedict be kept safe from all harm as he prays, bears witness to the Gospel, and invites all peoples to a dialogue of faith, reason and love. We make our prayer through Christ, our Lord. Amen.