I see we have brought out at least some of the KKK's nominal apologists. Stunned it took so long but then again it is very hard for Holocaust deniers to contain their impotent rage for very long

It's disgusting, it's vile, distasteful, insensitive, cruel, unusual, and immature.

Yeah, that pretty much sizes up Franz Kafka, Dostoevsky, Luis Bunuel, and many other great artists of our times. Mind you, this comic is a rather pale immitation of anything devised by a master, and the drawing could have been done in much finer detail to convey a deeper sense of irony, but I think conceptually the kids were on the mark in their observation of the Holocaust industry, which effectively makes a carnival of gratuitious emotions, politically correct social branding, and taboo key phrases and images relating to the Holocaust. I don't think this is conducive to really understanding the Holocaust, but I do think the comic is conducive to understanding the Holocaust industry.

Needless to say, it would have been disgusting had it featured *ANY* other type of person, minority OR majority, being knocked into an oven.

I'm sure if it had been Hansel and Gretel you wouldn't be complaining.

It is never funny to joke about someone's misfortunes.

Utter nonsense. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Don't even try to play that moral highroad on me.

And the Holocaust is more than just a misfortune.

No it's not. Don't you get it? It's a great misfortune, but that's all it is! It's not sacred ground, it's not devoid of its own cruel humor, it's not an 'event of religious proportions', whatever that might be. It won't go away if we keep taking it so seriously, and it won't come again if we take a more detatched view of it.

I see we have brought out at least some of the KKK's nominal apologists.

I hope you're not talking about me, buddy.

We must dispose of those humans that are undesirable, and we most do so in a fashion that is most convenient to us.

Yes I am talking to you and I am not your buddy.

Yeah, that pretty much sizes up Franz Kafka, Dostoevsky, Luis Bunuel, and many other great artists of our times. Mind you, this comic is a rather pale immitation of anything devised by a master, and the drawing could have been done in much finer detail to convey a deeper sense of irony, but I think conceptually the kids were on the mark in their observation of the Holocaust industry, which effectively makes a carnival of gratuitious emotions, politically correct social branding, and taboo key phrases and images relating to the Holocaust. I don't think this is conducive to really understanding the Holocaust, but I do think the comic is conducive to understanding the Holocaust industry.

When you think about it, all those racist jokes (including that one about a thousand Jews in the ashtray) and porn on the Internet and tentacle rape porn from Japan actually contain deep satirical imagery and social commentary.

Utter nonsense. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Don't even try to play that moral highroad on me.

I'll laugh at people's misfortune, but I won't laugh about real events in which people were raped or killed. It's like that football that was just killed. I think most people wouldn't find that amusing, but I'm sure some people can find ways to turn those who are poking fun at it into satirical geniuses.

No it's not. Don't you get it? It's a great misfortune, but that's all it is! It's not sacred ground, it's not devoid of its own cruel humor, it's not an 'event of religious proportions', whatever that might be. It won't go away if we keep taking it so seriously, and it won't come again if we take a more detatched view of it.

Would trivializing the matter stop it from happening? I don't see how it would. As for making it go away, many things would go away if people stopped taking it so seriously, like the trauma from rape, paedophilia, murder, and other atrocities done to people. Perhaps we should start calling those who are traumatized or offended by such acts to get over it and stop being so simple-minded.

Yes I am talking to you and I am not your buddy.

Then you are participating in a failure, and we shall never break through the clouds of ignorance if we are participating in failure. Therefore there is no further discourse between us, since I refuse to strive towards failure.

If by "breaking through clouds of ignorance" you mean advocating a "detached view" of genocide or atrocity, then consider me permanently overcast. No amount of elevated vocabulary can conceal the revolting depths of your philosophy.

I'm with you greywar.

Well said.

~Anne

When you think about it, all those racist jokes (including that one about a thousand Jews in the ashtray) and porn on the Internet and tentacle rape porn from Japan actually contain deep satirical imagery and social commentary.

Probably not, but if you can't appreciate the differences and similarities between pornography and dark humor, it doesn't make a difference. Think about the cartoon again. Who was it making fun of? The Jew? The person who is trying to knock him into the oven? The society that holds a holocaust festival (The holocaust museum?)? Is there a 'persecution complex' that causes scenes like these to become social mythology? Think of the movies, and the rather embarrassing (IMO) Hollywood style holocaust dramas (Schindler's List, the Pianist, Life is Beautiful) that the Oscars have celebrated. Everything's fake, I tell you, and you are the fool for solemnly following along.

Would trivializing the matter stop it from happening? I don't see how it would. As for making it go away, many things would go away if people stopped taking it so seriously, like the trauma from rape, paedophilia, murder, and other atrocities done to people. Perhaps we should start calling those who are traumatized or offended by such acts to get over it and stop being so simple-minded.

Again, the comic is not trivializing it - it does not have that power - it is satirizing the way society's expression of the Holocaust trivializes the event by solemnizing it. For solemnity is such a conclusive, funereal, and boring way of thinking. Fine as a social formality, but social formalities are dead, and history is alive. The next Hitler won't wear a moustache, and he probably won't cremate bodies. The comic doesn't want us to think in the same tired patterns of victimization and travesty, It wants us to think about ourselves.

If by "breaking through clouds of ignorance" you mean advocating a "detached view" of genocide or atrocity, then consider me permanently overcast. No amount of elevated vocabulary can conceal the revolting depths of your philosophy.

Actually I was thinking in simpler terms: You quoted me out of context, mislabeled me, and now you are assailing my philosophy. Nihilism is a spiny urchin that you can't swallow. I'm fine with that, but don't go calling me a KKK or a holocaust appologist/denier.

You called yourself those things with your own posts son. I just licked the label and placed where it was so obviously required.

Probably not, but if you can't appreciate the differences and similarities between pornography and dark humor, it doesn't make a difference. Think about the cartoon again. Who was it making fun of? The Jew? The person who is trying to knock him into the oven? The society that holds a holocaust festival (The holocaust museum?)? Is there a 'persecution complex' that causes scenes like these to become social mythology? Think of the movies, and the rather embarrassing (IMO) Hollywood style holocaust dramas (Schindler's List, the Pianist, Life is Beautiful) that the Oscars have celebrated. Everything's fake, I tell you, and you are the fool for solemnly following along.

I guess there is a difference between pornography and "dark humor" if you don't want to place as much energy in finding metaphors in pornography as you do in badly drawn comic strips.

Again, the comic is not trivializing it - it does not have that power - it is satirizing the way society's expression of the Holocaust trivializes the event by solemnizing it. For solemnity is such a conclusive, funereal, and boring way of thinking. Fine as a social formality, but social formalities are dead, and history is alive. The next Hitler won't wear a moustache, and he probably won't cremate bodies. The comic doesn't want us to think in the same tired patterns of victimization and travesty, It wants us to think about ourselves.

And yet laughing and making bad jokes about the genocide of Jews will not trivialize it?

You called yourself those things with your own posts son. I just licked the label and placed where it was so obviously required.

Well if the label of KKK is required in situations where truthfulness is not desired, I guess you can justify your words perfectly. However I don't think falsities are desirable in this case. You are a perfect example of someone with the holocaust complex who zealously protects its place in the holy temple of unassailable solemnity. I wish to free myself of that burden, so you spew venom and lies at my face. But it is you, not I, who does poor justice to the holocaust by worshipping it as you do. It is you who cannot properly distinguish who is the racist and the dangerous nazi sympathizer, and who is the mere intellectual provocateur. And so you play right in to what I am saying. If you live in a world of 'us vs. them', of good, sensible, religious minded people vs. horrible, racist, deniers of truth, you can count me out of your cosmology. I don't fit, and I don't want to.

You fit lad, I just think that you might find it more comfortable in the "them" camp. Enjoy their campfire if they will let you in, but they have a bad history of not allowing outsiders in. Outsiders tend to be killed in horrific ways, fortunately those of "us" will at least attempt to stop this from happeneing even to someone like you. And should you ever fall to one of "them" rest assured that even though we don't agreee, I will not take the "detached view" of the incident. Pull the covers over your head and snuggle up son, even though you can't seem to figure out how that blanket of protection got there or who provided it.

If you live in a world of 'us vs. them', of good, sensible, religious minded people vs. horrible, racist, deniers of truth, you can count me out of your cosmology. I don't fit, and I don't want to.

As opposed to simpleminded fascist fools who will start another holocaust because they do not tolerate ridiculing such a serious situation versus the righteous and enlightened people that will prevent another holocaust by trivializing such atrocities?

I'm fine with that, but don't go calling me a KKK or a holocaust appologist/denier.

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

And yet laughing and making bad jokes about the genocide of Jews will not trivialize it?

I wouldn't do it in front of children who might not understand, but a rational adult should be able to satirize (trivialize?) the holocaust complex without losing sight of the fact that the Holocaust was unjust, and justice must be promoted. Justice, mind you, and not slavery before law and the burden of morality. Don't mean to be such a Nietzchean, and I'm in many respects playing the devil's advocate here (so that you might understand that the comic wasn't racist), but I believe true justice is a product of creation, not obedience. Character should strive to outgrow morality, to will its own justice into the world, to be free and creative. It is no good to be subject to the codes and sermons of authority. This is all easier said than done, but from the vantage point of the rebellious college student with too much time on his hands and the desire to elevate his character above the common and banal, it's quite an appealing idea.

You fit lad, I just think that you might find it more comfortable in the "them" camp. Enjoy their campfire if they will let you in, but they have a bad history of not allowing outsiders in. Outsiders tend to be killed in horrific ways, fortunately those of "us" will at least attempt to stop this from happeneing even to someone like you. And should you ever fall to one of "them" rest assured that even though we don't agreee, I will not take the "detached view" of the incident. Pull the covers over your head and snuggle up son, even though you can't seem to figure out how that blanket of protection got there or who provided it.

Huh? You don't make sense, bubba. I don't want to be one of 'them', and I never will be. Your scenario is rubbish, and 'us' has a strange tendency to become 'them' without realizing it. Look at Ariel Sharon. You'll see. Therefore I detatch myself from both. I am 'me', I am not protected by your slave morality, I am protected by my own intellect and understanding.

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

Let's also not forget that we have fascist mentalities for not applauding the comic as a work of art.

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

You could call what I have expressed nihilism. Nihilism, please note, is not the intellectual phenomenon that produced fascism. It's unique because it is completely harmless when used for social criticism (though for purposes of leading a healthy social existence, it can be very alienating), but people still find it extremely threatening. It goes straight for the jugular of common values, but Nietzche's existentialism advocates and demonstrates that humans can be better people when they are free. Unfortunately, this is only applicable in practice to those who don't have to deal in the currency of morality as part of their social existence: artists, intellectuals, maverick entrepreneurs, and other creative dispositions. Still, I think it's perfectly valid social criticism.

You could call what I have expressed

No, I asked what you would have us call YOU.

artists, intellectuals, maverick entrepreneurs

Those were NOT high up on my list.

No, I asked what you would have us call YOU.

Call me Ying, thank you.

humans can be better people when they are free. Unfortunately, this is only applicable in practice to those who don't have to deal in the currency of morality as part of their social existence

I think I will just stick with "pretentious".

This cartoon was published in the Rutger University Entertainment newspaper. They have defended it saying that it was supposed to be funny. What if this cartoon was “knock a nigger into chains for buck!” Or “Rape a chink woman from Nanking for a buck!”

This whole discussion brings this opening post nicely into perspective.

First off, let me assure you that I am chronically alergic to all forms of racism and discrimination. However I do think the way some of you are reacting to the ideas of Saint Ying does indeed suggest that offending Jews is in some way worse than offending blacks or asians.
I found the cartoon very unfunny and not exactly thought-provoking. Quite poor really.

However in nothing I read from Saint Ying did I get the impression that he is a fascist/racist. I did see him deny that the prosecution of the jews in WWII was any different, in principle, than the prosecution of other peoples in other times. With this I agree.

A few years ago, president George W Bush said, "Either you're with us or against us" when he was speaking about the war on terror. It's was not that simple then and it is not in this case. Polarizing these issues in cases of "us" vs "them" is dangerous and an absolute killer for any sort of reasonable debate. Fifty years ago, saying you were in favor of more rights for the working man automatically made you a dirty commie bastard in many eyes. Every era has its' sensitivities and the holocaust is the biggest one of ours. It's not a myth, it's a horror we need to remember as long as we can to teach and learn. One of the things to learn is that not everyone who goes against the official partyline is automatically The Enemy.