I Have a Question

Pat Robertson is just a loon.  He is the classic example of opening mouth before engaging brain.

But Falwell is not very tolerant if you do not share his faith.

You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away -- you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes.... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel.

It is hard to respect a man that has already condemned your soul without ever having known you.

I can't say much about Falwell. He's made some off the cuff comments that have made him look a little silly at times, but the only difference between me and him in that regard is, HIS comments make page 1 when he makes them. I know Liberty University is a fine university, and would be equally proud to have my kids attend.

Robertson, however, is another matter. in his 1988 Presidential bid, his campaign literature contained his goal to "de-fund" the left. Opposition to another point of view is one thing; trying to silence it by driving it to bankruptcy is another.

Robertson is also a little to quick to pull the trigger on judgment; whenever a world event happens, he automatically ascribes it to God's wrath or God's blessing, while it may, in fact, be neither.

I'm also not too hot on "hirelings" using the word of God for profit. While I wouldn't put that label on Falwell (I, too, know many people who know the man who would support exactly what you've said about him), I do see it in Robertson. I've seen too many fundraising flyers from "the 700 Club" to see Robertson as being anything but.

I don't lump the two together, but you're right, many do. An odd recent trend has been to throw Dr. James Dobson into the mix, although he's totally separate as well.

Robertson weirds me out.

When he is praying on his show and they do that "I feel someone with a broken leg, their left, leg..." that is weird and def not my cup of tea. To me it is just a fancy dressed of version of Benny Hinn.

To each his own though, I don't doubt God can use even the weirdest with a willing heart!

One other thing about Falwell. I dont like how he basically stole Jim Bakker's ministry from him. I know Bakker was a con man, but that was not what a 'man of god' should have done.

But Falwell is not very tolerant if you do not share his faith.

Well I do know his college is full of all from different Christian denominations and are welcome. While there probably are not lots of Catholics, there are some there. I know of a woman who is a Seventh Day Adventist who went there even tho the Adventists have their own college.

It is hard to respect a man that has already condemned your soul without ever having known you

Is that quote from him? This is talking about the rapture. What he's saying is those that are not ready and waiting for Christ (unbelievers) will not be snatched away to meet him in the air when he comes again.....1 Thess 4:16-18

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.....therefore encourage each other with these words."

He's made some off the cuff comments that have made him look a little silly at times, but the only difference between me and him in that regard is, HIS comments make page 1 when he makes them.

ya, that's what I think also. Put this together with the sound bites the media likes to isolate and it makes it even worse.

I know Liberty University is a fine university, and would be equally proud to have my kids attend.

obviously I think so as well. What I have noticed, not only with my boys, but with other parents I've talked with is that their kids come home on fire for God. Not just an external thing either. It goes right to their very heart. I've seen a huge difference in my youngest son especially. Of course meeting a nice on fire Christian girl must have helped tremendously...... One parent I know has seven kids and two went to Liberty and the other 5 went to various other Christian colleges. She said there was a big difference in the two that went to Liberty in contrast to her other kids.

Robertson is also a little to quick to pull the trigger on judgment; whenever a world event happens, he automatically ascribes it to God's wrath or God's blessing, while it may, in fact, be neither.I'm also not too hot on "hirelings" using the word of God for profit.

yup.....know what you mean. I concur totally.

Dr. James Dobson into the mix, although he's totally separate as well.

Next to the "manual" This man has had a very big influence in how I raised my kids. His books are great. I love James Dobson. He's the real deal and much loved by millions around the world for his warm and down to earth personality as well as his great love for the children.

Robertson weirds me out.

I haven't watched him or his 700 Club in years. I used to watch him in the early days of my Christianity and he does have a way of weirdness about him. Anyone that basically stays in the "last days" mentality sets up a red flag for me coming out of the groups I've come out of. Balance is what we need and especially on how to live right and acceptable to God.

dont like how he basically stole Jim Bakker's ministry from him

where are you getting this? Falwell started in Lynchburg right out of college at the age of 22. He hasn't left there. His story is that he knocked on 100 doors every night after supper to bring people out of their homes and into his church. I've never heard this before. I think Baker started out ok but got caught up in the whole money and adulation thing going on.....that and he married the wrong woman.

i doubt you're gonna like my answers but here goes:

jerry falwell is a lying hypocrite who has paid for perjured testimony. i know this for a fact because i was offered a considerable amount of money to perjure myself oh his behalf; i also know someone who took the money and did just that.

in 1994, falwell collected $200,000 from his flock to fund a 'documentary' entitled 'the clinton chronicles: an investigation into the alleged criminal activities of bill clinton'. it was promoted via an infomercial in which falwell was seen 'interviewing' a person shown only in silhouette and identified as a 'journalist' who informed falwell those who exposed clinton were putting their lives in jeopardy. as it turns out, the 'journalist' was the film's producer and falwell's longtime friend, patrick matrisciana. matrisciana has since admitted to murray waas that he did not believe himself to be in any danger and stated, "That was Jerry's idea to do that ... He thought that would be dramatic."

matrisciana's 'citizens for honest government' organization has paid a number of individuals (including two arkansas state troopers) to make unsubstantiated allegations about clinton's involvement in the death of vince foster and paula jones' sexual harrassment suit.

in a 2005 interview, falwell stated: "To this day I do not know the accuracy of the claims made in The Clinton Chronicles"

so much for bearing false witness huh?

as far as liberty university goes, you are aware it would have gone belly-up in the mid-90s if not for a 3.5 million dollar donation by the rev sun myung moon who claims to be jesus christ's sucessor? falwell was photographed with his arms around the new messiah and later publicly called for a presidential pardon of moon's tax evasion conviction.

I dont like how he basically stole Jim Bakker's ministry from him. I know Bakker was a con man, but that was not what a 'man of god' should have done

where are you getting this?

drguy was apparently paying attention when bakker selected falwell to defend bakker's ptl organization from his fellow evangelists. falwell promised to do just that...and then put ptl into bankruptcy.

you can try to distance falwell from pat 'lake of farrr' robertson, but the only difference between the two is falwell's a lil slicker--usually.

here's a partial transcript from robertson's 9/13/2001 700 club broadcast:

FALWELL: I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

FALWELL: And I know that I'll hear from them for this. But,
throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say: "You helped this happen."

ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged". In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time -- calling upon God.

ROBERTSON: Amen.

in case it escaped anyone, falwell is the one claiming 911 to be the work of an angry god while robertson can barely get a word in.

jerry falwell is a lying hypocrite who has paid for perjured testimony. i know this for a fact because i was offered a considerable amount of money to perjure myself oh his behalf; i also know someone who took the money and did just that.

Wow Kingbee that is quite an accusation.  And I imagine there is a really good story behind it.  You should blog about it!  Details!  Details!

 

drguy was apparently paying attention when bakker selected falwell to defend bakker's ptl organization from his fellow evangelists. falwell promised to do just that...and then put ptl into bankruptcy.

See?  I pay attention sometimes.

i doubt you're gonna like my answers but here goes:

Well since I opened this up for all points of view....all are welcome.

jerry falwell is a lying hypocrite who has paid for perjured testimony. i know this for a fact because i was offered a considerable amount of money to perjure myself oh his behalf; i also know someone who took the money and did just that.

This is a serious allegation made here. I can't comment since I know nothing of this. I can only wonder if this is indeed fact, why the media hounds have not pounced on this. They love to go after Jerry. Like Tova said....details would be nice.

in case it escaped anyone, falwell is the one claiming 911 to be the work of an angry god while robertson can barely get a word in

Well a few things come to mind....first there is not enough info here (would love to see the link on this) to say who did the most conversing in this whole conversation. But even so, if it were mostly Jerry here as you show, that would make sense. He's the guest being interviewed by the Host. So I don't see a problem here. Besides....Jerry DOES like to talk.

The other thing about Falwell making the claim on 911 being the work of an angry God is not a new concept. Have you ever read Psalm 2? Pretty interesting especially in lieu of today's current events.

Many Preachers of many denominations talked of this. I believe Franklin Graham said something along this line as well. If you remember after this happened, many, many flocked to churches. Church attendance was well documented as going way up after this. So I would dare say many lay people thought this as well. As Gid said, the difference is Jerry's statements were broadcasted.

Also, using a nation to get another nation's attention is quite biblical. God used the Egyptians in their domination of Israel. Under the protection of slavery, the nation flourished. They went in as 70 and came out with 603,000 men not including women and children. Babylon carried Judah away in exile for 70 years, destroyed Jerusalem and the temple built by Solomon (remember Daniel?) all because they disobeyed God. The one that comes to my mind right off tho is Assyria being used as a tool to punish God's chosen nation who had wandered away from God in pursue of godless idols.

"Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath!! I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets." Isa 10:5-6.

Basically Isaiah is sayiing Assyria was a rod in the hand of God to discipline Israel, even though the prideful Assyrians did not intend to cooperate with God. The intention is clear that Assyria will not conquer Israel by her own power but by God's permission. Later God would destroy Assyria with the fall of Ninevah in 612 BC.

"When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem he will say, I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes" Isa 10:12

If God used prideful pagan nations to do his work back then, who's to say He wouldn't do so again? After all, he does say that he puts the "Kings" in their places. In the case of 911 God allowed this to happen. Why? To get our attention? To start the world going in the direction He wants? Who knows? Like I've said before, we don't know the whys quite often I believe there is a plan going on here, and it's hard for us to wrap our finite minds around all this.

In the case of 911 God allowed this to happen. Why? To get our attention? To start the world going in the direction He wants?

That's the same thing the terrorists say.

So in other words, both you and god are on the terrorists' side.

See? I pay attention sometimes

Yes, you do. Good job!! I'm just finding out info on this. I pulled down Falwell's autobiography from my bookshelf and saw he devoted one chapter entitled the PTL Scandal. I intend to read it later tonight.

I guess I wasn't paying attention and when I looked at the date, I can see why. It happened in 87 and at that time I had one, three and four year old little boys running me ragged. I do remember the scandal with Baker and Jessica but didn't remember Falwell having been in the mix. I also found a site that chronicles the whole thingf from the media's point of view and from just glancing at it I see the same quotes that are in Falwell's book.

So in other words, both you and god are on the terrorists' side.

ya I can see what you mean here. Although I wasn't saying anything dogmatic here. We don't know the mind of God, but I wouldn't be surprised that these were his reasons based on scripture and previous wars. But I wouldn't go so far as saying I'm on the terrorists' side. God takes what is bad and intended for evil and turns it around to bring glory to Him. He didn't start this but He did allow it to happen for some reason only known to Him.

To: KFC

The other thing about Falwell making the claim on 911 being the work of an angry God is not a new concept. Have you ever read Psalm 2? Pretty interesting especially in lieu of today's current events.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

Who are the heathen here (in the context of your 'argument')? Americans? The reeking Saudi swine that flew the planes into the WTC? The mad dogs of Israel, whom you rightly point out have been chastised too many times to count by a God made crazy by the stiff-neckedness of 'His' people? And who is the Son? Israel? Jesus? Dubya?

Falwell and his money-grubbing ilk will tell you the heathen in question are Americans - since according to their simplicity God has more interest in who you have sex with than in the righteousness of a burnt-offering of 3000 dead Americans and others. Perhaps, had Falwell & Co. attained to a greater level of sophistication, they would say the purpose of the act in question was to punish America for participating in the perennial obstinacy of the Jews in refusing to apply the Laws they were given to their political life - myself, I think such a point of view will always be beyond these whited sepulchres.

And who are the 'Kings' the Psalmist so boldly rebukes? Those who oppose Israel? Those who side with Israel in its stubborn rejection of righteousness through works (since they, as Jews, live under the covenant of Moses)? The monarchical regimes of the Middle East with which America has so strangely gotten into bed? I say strangely, because the entire premise of the existence of America is anti-monarchical and its founding values are the antithesis of all monarchies of every kind.

And the Son to whom the heathen are to be given; would that be Israel? Or Jesus (who, according to Revelation, is to kill all but 144,000 of the chosen people [Revelation 7: 1-8])?

At the time the Psalm was composed I have no doubt that its interpretation was the simplest thing imaginable: the Lord's anointed was the King of Israel, and the heathen were all the peoples not of the Twelve Tribes; the Kings to be vexed were the Kings of the heathen, and the 'Son' both Israel as a whole and the King of that particular day.

However, such simple times are long since gone and the exigesis of the Psalm in the context of 9/11 an exercise in total futility - for anyone with an open mind, that is. For a bigot such as Falwell exegesis is a simple matter, determined by his hatred of those parts of contemporary American society his prejudice has determined are 'ungodly'.

KFC, much of your confusion as to the nature of the 'mind of God' would be dispelled if you were to realize that Falwell's exegetical principle is also yours. Blind prejudice determines that, when your children escape the results of their own stupidity, it's a sign of God's favor. And the limitations of such prejudice also explain why, in any situation more complicated than that of your own family, the 'mind of God' is hidden from you. You understand God perfectly well when 'His' acts fit within your prejudices, hopes and fears (and are more than happy to belabor the rest of JU - and by extension the rest of the world - with demands to share those prejudices) but under any other circumstance you fall back on the tired cliche of God moving in mysterious ways.

The only mystery here lies in your ability to imagine that the Psalm you cite has any relevance to 'current events', when in fact it relates to a world now dead and gone for several thousand years. But then, you also imagine that Falwell and the others like him, filthy parasites that feed off the terrors of the simple-minded, are 'men of God'. The mountain of your bigotry is as transparent as glass, while the horrors your unpleasant little 'god' perpetrates are the merest molehills of faith, substantiated by convenient ignorance.

I'm sure your Jesus, that icon of confusion and incoherence, is proud of you.

God COMMANDS the death of "innocent" civilians in the OT when he tells the Jews to slaughter the people on the promised land. Not just slaughter them, but even their animals! Not to leave a single person alive.

So there is precedent for God ordered slaughter. I don't claim to understand, but it does help give me a better rounded picture of the God I worship. He's not all tulips and chocolate. And I don't want that wrath pointed at me!

Now I am not saying 9-11 was God's will. I don't think he works like that personally. Scripture has God using nation against nation with war to "punish" or get the people's "attention."

War, though horrible, is imo "honorable" or more so than terrorism. Terrorism is about sneaking and lying and murdering. War is declaring your intention outright, then proceeding fairly openly with getting your way.

For example, in my mind a duel fought by two willing combatants is much more honorable than say, a man who climbs through a window in the darkness of night to cut his enemies throat. (Though I can see how the second scenario could be more efficient. ) And I may be wrong, but I can't think of one place in scripture where God commands anyone to do the latter.

I remember a lot of people calling 9-11 "God trying to get our attention." But I believe just as evil happens everywhere, that God can use that to change people's lives personally. And if it caused people to examine their lives, and examine the country, then all the better.

I'd hate to think all those people lost their lives and we could shrug and move on without any self examination.

To: Tova7

God COMMANDS the death of "innocent" civilians in the OT when he tells the Jews to slaughter the people on the promised land. Not just slaughter them, but even their animals! Not to leave a single person alive.

God commands the deaths of those engaged in idolatry, or those who stood in the way of the Israelites to the Promised Land, in the OT. Being idolaters they were, by definition, not innocent. Standing in opposition to the Israelites also meant, in the terms of the OT, that those who did so were not innocent.

I was not aware, personally, on the morning of 9/11 as I sat at my CAD work station, that God had issued as a public decree (as It invariably did through the mouths of Prophets and Judges) that those who worked in and around the WTC were either idolaters or enemies of Israel - and so were 'dedicated to destruction', that being the euphemistic phrase used in translations of the Bible for the wholesale eradiction of peoples and property.

You also step over the entire issue of the difference between the nature of the two covenants - the covenant of Judgment (the OT) and the covenant of Mercy (the NT). I suggest you read the writings of Joachim of Flores on the nature of the three spiritual ages of the world and their respective consequences for such issues.

The commandment against killing is no such thing. As you point out, there are any number of instances in the OT in which the Israelites are commanded to kill. There is, however, a commandment against murder. Whatever else 9/11 was, it was a series of acts of murder. Are you suggesting that God would so far deviate from Its nature, as recorded in the Bible, that it would instigate, or even condone, acts which explicitly contravene both covenants?

I remember a lot of people calling 9-11 "God trying to get our attention." But I believe just as evil happens everywhere, that God can use that to change people's lives personally. And if it caused people to examine their lives, and examine the country, then all the better.

Are you suggesting that those who died were more or less holy than anyone else in New York on that day? If you're suggesting they were 'chosen' to be killed because they were so meritorious that they were all martyred to teach us a lesson, let me remind you that, according to the Christian revelation, only Christ was innocent and therefore worthy to be sacrificed - and let me point out that, if that is your position, you have just annihilated the basis of your faith.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that they were greater sinners than anyone else, and so worthy to be punished, let me point you to these scriptures:

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

On the one hand you add to the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are at least as worthy as Christ to serve as an atoning sacrifice; and on the other, you take from the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are more worthy of punishment than others - which contravenes that dictum that all are guilty and have fallen short.

Neither thing is good to do: Revelation 22: 18-19 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

'Book', here, means the Book of Revelation. But if the Spirit is true in one part, it's true also in another, since the same Spirit animates each part equally. If you're one of those who take the bible literally you'd do well to think rather more carefully than you have, before making any similar comments in the future.

I suppose KFC and Tova think that, on the morning of 9/11, God somehow made sure that only sinners were in the WTC.

To: Iconoclast

I'm so entirely weary of christians who have not the remotest understanding of the most basic precepts of their faith that I'm thinking of writing a 'Christianity for Dummies' piece. If that sounds arrogant it's because it is arrogant - 22 years of continuous study and thought, reading, rereading, and re-rereading of the whole Bible over that period, along with patristic writers such as Augustine and Irenaeus, along with a compendium of gnostics and other 'heretics' ought to and will provide a foundation for such a piece.

My only concern is the length to which it might grow. But hey - I'm unemployed; I have nothing but time right now.

I don't have alot of time right now and haven't read all the responses here but there is another incident in scripture that comes to mind similar to 9-11. It's in Luke 13 where the "innocent" Galilaneans were killed by the hand of Pilate while they were in the temple giving their sacrifices. It said their blood was mingled with the sacrificial blood of the lambs. and also another incident with another tower that fell........Jesus said to them:

"Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things? I tell you, No, but except you reprent you shall all likewise perish. Or thos 18 upon whom the tower in Siloam fell and were killed, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem. I tell you no, except you repent you shall all likewise perish."

I remember this scripture popping up during 9-11. Basically I take this to mean that it doesn't matter how we die, whether it be old age or a sudden tragedy like this. Repentance is necessary to "live." Jesus was calling them all to repentance here. He never ever put alot of stock in our physical lives but iin the spiritual. It's the spiritual that gives life even if we die physically.

We as humans care and live for the flesh and He didn't want us to get caught up in all that. There's hope outside of this physcial world we live in and he wanted us to know this.

I'll be back later.

To: KFC

I'm constantly astounded by the level of Scriptural ignorance you're willing to display in public. Do you count on your readers being more ignorant than you are -or do you merely hope and assume that they are more ignorant than you are?

Seeing that you claim to be a teacher, you ought to know that the context of scripture is the most important clue as to its meaning. The thrust of the chapter as a whole has to do with hypocrisy - something you and Falwell both are profoundly intimate with. The teaching of the chapter is not that Jesus was concerned with the spiritual over the physical, as you claim in your folly, but that those who are as honest in their doubt as they are in their faith will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before those who have merely the appearance of righteousness.

The verses you and I both cited, when taken in their proper context, have nothing whatever to do with 'the flesh' and everything to do with the proper appreciation of the dependence of the believer upon God for vindication.

was not aware, personally, on the morning of 9/11 as I sat at my CAD work station, that God had issued as a public decree (as It invariably did through the mouths of Prophets and Judges) that those who worked in and around the WTC were either idolaters or enemies of Israel - and so were 'dedicated to destruction', that being the euphemistic phrase used in translations of the Bible for the wholesale eradiction of peoples and property

Did you NOT read what I wrote.....

I am not saying 9-11 was God's will. I don't think he works like that personally

And then I go to explain exactly why terrorism is murder and war is not...or at least I thought I did.

Terrorism is about sneaking and lying and murdering

Are you suggesting that those who died were more or less holy than anyone else in New York on that day? If you're suggesting they were 'chosen' to be killed because they were so meritorious that they were all martyred to teach us a lesson, let me remind you that, according to the Christian revelation, only Christ was innocent and therefore worthy to be sacrificed - and let me point out that, if that is your position, you have just annihilated the basis of your faith.

I am not suggesting ANYTHING about the people who died...I AM suggesting something about God. That being He can and does use what others mean for evil for good.

On the one hand you add to the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are at least as worthy as Christ to serve as an atoning sacrifice; and on the other, you take from the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are more worthy of punishment than others - which contravenes that dictum that all are guilty and have fallen short.

Just what sentence exactly did you take that from? You are reading into what I've written.

It's almost like you skimmed my comment, read into it what you wanted so you could go off on some tangent.

suppose KFC and Tova think that, on the morning of 9/11, God somehow made sure that only sinners were in the WTC.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that day.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that day

can you do that?

EOIC

Let me spell it out for you.....

13:1 Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. Evidently, some worshipers from Galilee were condemned by Rome, perhaps because they were zealots and were sought out and killed in the temple by Roman authorities while in the process of offering a sacrifice. Such a killing would have been the grossest sort of blasphemy. Incidents like this inflamed the Jews’ hatred of Rome and finally led to rebellion, and the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70.

13:2 worse sinners. It was the belief of many that disaster and sudden death always signified divine displeasure over particular sins Those who suffered in uncommon ways were therefore assumed to be guilty of some more severe immorality. T

13:3 unless you repent. Jesus did not deny the connection between catastrophe and human evil, for all such afflictions ultimately stem from the curse of humanity’s fallenness. Furthermore, specific calamities may indeed be the fruit of certain iniquities. But Christ challenged the people’s notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent, for all were in danger of sudden destruction. No one is guaranteed time to prepare for death, so now is the time for repentance for all, you will all likewise perish. These words prophetically warned of the approaching judgment of Israel, which culminated in the catastrophic destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Thousands in Jerusalem were killed by the Romans.

13:4 Siloam. Evidently one of the towers guarding the pool of Siloam collapsed, perhaps while under construction, killing some people. Again, the question in the minds of people was regarding the connection between calamity and isin (“worse sinners”). Jesus responded by saying that such a calamity was not God’s way to single out an especially evil group for death, but as a means of warning to all sinners. Calamitous judgment was eventually coming to all if they did not repent.

We all have a date with death whether it be by tragedy or not. On that same day of 9-11 many more thousands died that day all over the world. Some alone, some in pairs and some in groups. What matters more than the deaths of all these people all over the world is...their relationship with their creator.....did they make ammends with him or not?

Augustine and Irenaeus, along with a compendium of gnostics and other 'heretics'

so you're putting Augustine and Irenaeus, in the same boat with the heretics and gnostics? Why bother? Why not just forego any mention of religion, scripture or faith if you hate it so? I'm thinking you doth protest way too much.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that daycan you do that?

ya, I'm afraid I do it way too much......being disobedient that is.......

To: Tova7 and KFC

As I said, what's needed is a 'Christianity for Dummies'. As well as 'Argumentation 101'.

There are no innocents in the OT in the sense that you say there are - and your insistence that there are simply demonstrates that you don't understand the nature of the God you profess to believe in, or the events 'recorded' in that series of books.

KFC - the constant reiteration of your original premise, in all its idiot glory, is not the same as responding to an argument.

Who are the heathen here (in the context of your 'argument')? Americans? The reeking Saudi swine that flew the planes into the WTC? The mad dogs of Israel, whom you rightly point out have been chastised too many times to count by a God made crazy by the stiff-neckedness of 'His' people? And who is the Son? Israel? Jesus? Dubya?

I don't know why I bother EOIC...I feel like I'm feeding a monster here but here goes......I'll just go and bang my head against the wall when I'm done. PSALM 2

V1-3: These nations are in rebellion against God at the end of the age. The nations raging is plural goyim referring to Gentile nations. Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations (as predicted they would be) so the general context I believe are those nations but is applicable to any that plot against God, his chosen and his chosen city...Zion.

The Hebrew word translated “rage” gives the idea of insurrection. It speaks of conspiring or plotting. The idea is that all nations are plotting and conspiring against God and His plan for the earth. In the middle of all this they “set themselves” in battle against God. They are assuming a deliberately hostile position. They then “take counsel.” Here we picture them literally seating themselves close together as in a conclave. They are plotting together, a coup and preparing a mutiny and are firmly setting themselves up for this action

This rebellion is directed against the righteous Lord of the universe and His “Anointed” (the Lord Jesus). Remember Paul? He didn't realize when he was persecuting the Christians, he was persecuting Jesus. Same idea here.

The reason and purpose behind their actions is made known in v3. The nations want no restraints, no absolutes, no standards and of course no accountability. They want to say, “I’m the judge in my court. I’m the Captain of my ship. I’m the master of my fate.” This is none other than the deification of man coming of age. I'm sure you understand all about this.

This prideful humanism is like the like the pottery saying to the Potter who lovingly crafted it “Get lost!! Take a hike!! I don’t need you anymore. Get out of my life.” How insane is that? Hasn't that been our "tude" towards God these last 40 years in this country? Man thinks he can successfully rebel against his creator. Aren't you proof of this yourself EOIC?

We can see in v3 the imagery of a restless animal that breaks off its cords for the freedom they believe they do not have. Men do not want the Lord nor His Son to rule over them. This is a direct attack on Divine Sovereignty. We are nearing every day the battle of Armageddon and we will see this continue right up until that day.

The only mystery here lies in your ability to imagine that the Psalm you cite has any relevance to 'current events', when in fact it relates to a world now dead and gone for several thousand years

oh really? So all those Messianic Psalms like this Psalm are really have nothing to do with Christ? Then what do you do here?

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.Luke 24:27.

And yes, I do like to teach, so I'd like to give you the number one lesson I teach all my students.....the whole OT is all about Christ. It doesn't start in the book of Matthew.