Bahu Virupaksha Bahu Virupaksha

WHY CEASEFIRE IS IN ISRAEL'S INTEREST

WHY CEASEFIRE IS IN ISRAEL'S INTEREST

The spreading fire in the Middle East

Isaac Deutcher, the Jewish historian whose entire family perished in the Holocaust made the following observation after the end of the 1967 six day war with the Arab states: "To justify or condone Israel's wars against the Arabs is to render Israel a very bad service and harm its own long term interests". This statement is relevant today as Israel in a blaze of military tiumphalim is close to achieving abbolute mastery over Lebanon. The unrestrained use of firepower, and the highly self righteous rhetoric from Israeli leaders and the undercurrent of racist antagonism against the Arab population and the callous disregatrd for Arab lives--women and children-- not excluded.. all suggest that Israel is using the opportunity provided by the war on terror and the disturbed conditions prevaileing in the region to redraw the boundries to its advantage.

The offensive againt Hamas in Palestine has already cost hundreds of lives and now the war against Lebanon. Hamas, a Sunni outfit and Hizbollah a Shiaa outfit have now joined hands.. It is possible that Israeli military offensive could completely jeopardise the stability of the present regime and the large scale violence and bloodshed unleashed by Israel makes the Lebones population yearn for the days of Syrian occupation. The Maronite Christian and the Druze population were at the forefront of the struggle against Syria aznd having rid Lebanon of Syria, the people find themselves under seige by land, air and sea from a far more ruthless adversary. The Western powers used the pretext provided by the killing of Rafik Hariri to exple the Syrians from Lebanon and the Bekaab Valley. Now the world can see for itself the real gameplan behind the killing of Rafik Hiriri and the expulsion of the Syrians.

The military operations against the Hizbollah will only serve to intensify the problem in the middle east. A parallel with Iraq is obvious. Just as US occupation of Iraq fuelled an isurgency that has now gone out of control, the Israeli presence in SDouthern Lebanon will only intensify the resistance. Isral has gone in for prisoner swaps earlier, why not now. Obviously it wants to use this opportunity to consolodate itself in souther Lebanon and create what it calls a "buffer zone" there. USA has shown lack of political understanding when on the one hand it admits that Israel has used dispropotionate force against the civilian population and on the other uses the threat of veto on the question of a UN sponsored ceasefire

Is rthere any evidence that Iran has instigated the Hizbollah in order to divert attention from the nuclear tangle? In fact the dispropotionate use of air power against the civilian population by Israel itself will be a major talking point that Israel and the USA understand only the language of military might making the solution of the issue more difficult. So far Israel has provided no information about a possible Iranian link except the inuendo that since Hizbollah is a Shiaa organisation it must be a surrogate of the Iran. The logic of such statements is similar to Joseph Macarthy's famous aphorism" It walks like a duck, squacks like a duck so it must be a duck. Unfortunately the Iranian angle to this crisis has not been established. Syria is belamed for everything that happens in Lebanon. In fact it was Syria that brought peace to the war torn country and inspite of the UN intervention it has not been establishe that Syria was involved in the Rafik Hiriri assasination. The Katuysha rockets are of Soviet vintage and there are no signs of direct military support to Hizbollah by Syria. It is obvious that Israel is making thse accusations in order to widen the amit of conflict and draw the US directly into armed confrontation with Iran.

The response of the Arab nations to this unfolding catastrophe has been timid, tepid and spineless. Of course there is no love lost between the Arab powers and the Hizbollah but when Arabs are being killed in such numbers it is a shameless act of perfidy on the part of Arab Governments to remain silent spectators. However on the ground there is overwhelming suppot for the victims of Israeli aggression and that is a dangerous factor in the violent social and political undercurrents of the Middle East.

USA must suppot a ceasefire as desired by the government of Lebanon in the interes of peace and to stem a spiralling humanitarian cris in the region."
19,672 views 54 replies
Reply #26 Top
Wars are faught against other armies, and in these days of asymmetrical armed conflict with other armed groups motivated with a political or ideological purposes. Attacking civilians in an indiscri,imate manner as Israel is doing is not war it is slaughter and violated the rules of civilised warfare, yes, there are rules of warfare. Why did USA enter World War I: the sinking of the USS Lusitania., a civilian carrier with the loss of innocent civilian life. Civilians cannot be the primary target of war on the grounds that the enemy hides in their midst.


Tell that to the Palestinians!!!



Terrorists Open Fire on Memorial Ceremony (10.5.04)

Palestinian terrorists, one of them apparently dressed as a woman, opened fire at hundreds of Jews who came to participate in a memorial ceremony for the Hatuel family in Gush Katif this evening. "Bullets whistled past our ears, and between our legs, and miraculously, no one was hurt," said Gaza Coast spokesman Eran Sternberg. IDF soldiers killed two of the attackers.

In response to the attack, IDF bulldozers have, since this morning, been demolishing 13 houses owned by Arabs that have been used as cover for terrorist attacks along the Kisufim Route into Gush Katif. The residents have long demanded such an action, which was stopped by past Supreme Court rulings.

"It was a humiliating experience for Jews who come to remember a slaughtered family to have to crouch and lie down while terrorists shoot wildly around," said David Hatuel afterward yesterday's attack. "Why can't the army protect a road just a few kilometers long? The houses that line the road must be torn down!" Hatuel lost his pregnant wife and their four daughters, aged 2-11, a week ago when Palestinian terrorists shot and killed them at point-blank range on the Kisufim entrance road to Gush Katif.
Reply #27 Top
Even the American Sec of State Condi Rice seemed quite contrite over the Israeli air strikes against Beirut. In fact there has been coverage in BBC and CNN over Israeli strikes against hospitals.


The BBC and CNN...I can't stop laughing.
Reply #28 Top
HEZBOLLAH yesterday dismissed proposals for a ceasefire in Lebanon from the United States secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, after she made a surprise stop in Beirut on her way to Israel.
Reply #29 Top
Reply #30 Top
Istrael is resisting a ceasefire with US complicity for two contrary reason. On the one hand it believes it can disarm the Hizbollah by imposing unacceptable level of civilain carnage. Now the Arab public opinion is united against Israel and a durable peace is not possible without an honorable settelement of the Middle East question. Second, the 15 kilometer secrurity zone will not stabalise the border as that would only make the area vulnerable to guerrila attacks. Even now the Hizbullzah is putting up Resistance that the IDF did not expect and witth mounting casualities even the supine Arab leadership has to act.
Reply #31 Top
: Island Dog


Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and no c one can forget that. When Truman took the decision to dropthe bombs on the two cities,he only wanted to send a strong message to the Soviet Union. I think the situation in the Middle East is different.
Reply #32 Top

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and no c one can forget that.

No, only a person ignorant of the war can say that.  While horrorific, the bombs saved millions of lives.  The ignorant ones would have had a conventional invasion costing (by the then estimated) 1.5 million american lives and about 10 million japanese lives.

ANd in a way, it was the best thing to happen to the world. As since then, other than a bunch of raving dictators, the world has not suffered another major war.  Because everyone is afraid of what might happen if one started.

Reply #33 Top
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and no c one can forget that.


No they weren't.
Reply #34 Top
"Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and no c one can forget that. When Truman took the decision to dropthe bombs on the two cities,he only wanted to send a strong message to the Soviet Union. I think the situation in the Middle East is different."


Both sides are right on this. It was done partially for the benefit of the Soviet Union, and technically it could have been considered a crime against humanity. On the other hand, it ensured that what followed wasn't a post WW1 Germany style situation in Japan. It stopped Stalin in his rush to get to Japan and do what he did in Germany or worse. It also saved millions of lives that would have been lost forcing an occupation on Japan that they wouldn't have agreed to any other way.

In other words, it was ugly. It went against the sensibilities of people who have a hard time with the reality of war. It was political to a point. It was also absolutely the right thing to do at the exact right time to spare the world another bloody extension of WW2, and possibly a segway into WW3.
Reply #35 Top
Bahu, if you take requests, would you please sometime describe how you think war should be fought?


Wars are faught against other armies, and in these days of asymmetrical armed conflict with other armed groups motivated with a political or ideological purposes. Attacking civilians in an indiscri,imate manner as Israel is doing is not war it is slaughter and violated the rules of civilised warfare, yes, there are rules of warfare. Why did USA enter World War I: the sinking of the USS Lusitania., a civilian carrier with the loss of innocent civilian life. Civilians cannot be the primary target of war on the grounds that the enemy hides in their midst.


Baker:

Judging by Bahu's response it seems that his idea of a war is something our of the movie Braveheart, where both military forces met at an empty field and fought it out till one surrended or ran away, no civilians, no cities nothing but soldiers to kill each other. He definitely needs to stop watching movies.
Reply #36 Top
Now the Arab public opinion is united against Israel

Except of course for the Saudis, Egypt, and Jordan who have all publicly condemned the acts of this terrorist organization in the Arabic press.

If the terrorists wanted peace all they would have to do is release the Israeli soldiers and stop firing their rockets into Israel and killing civilians there. You'll notice they haven't done so. Instead they move right into the middle of populated areas so as to draw fire there ensuring civilian casualties. Nice guys.

Bahu, while I'm sure you're quite proud of your terrorist buddies and the fight they started by kidnapping Israeli soldiers, the fact remains they are nothing but terrorist scum who care nothing for the poor civilians they are responsible for killing by intentionally taking their fight right into their midst. The blood in this fight is on their hands and the hands of all of those who support them. (like yours for instance)
Reply #37 Top
a durable peace is not possible without an honorable settelement of the Middle East question.


One of your better jokes, Bahu.

You really think Hezbollah will "honor" any peace agreement with Israel, let alone a "durable" one? You wanna put your nuts on the table on that basis, go right ahead. The rest of us sane folks, well we'll just keep our zippers up.
Reply #38 Top
Obviously while Hezbollah is an agent of Iran and Syria, they are working in Lebanon at the behest of the Lebanese.
Did the Lebanese really have a choice?
Reply #39 Top
Bahu, while I'm sure you're quite proud of your terrorist buddies and the fight they started by kidnapping Israeli soldiers, the fact remains they are nothing but terrorist scum who care nothing for the poor civilians they are responsible for killing by intentionally taking their fight right into their




You really think Hezbollah will "honor" any peace agreement with Israel, let alone a "durable" one?



First making a personal accusation is unethical and as you know well I have never supported "terrorists" of sny stripe, American, Israeli or Arab. More realistically the Israeli have in the past gone in for prisoner exchange and the Hizbollah though that with the Gaza on fire, they have an opportunity to go in for an exchane. Even if one conceded it was wrong does that result in the carnage of over 450 civilians.

The Middle East has certain political difficulties and the two state solutionn on the basis of the Road Map is a good beginning. In fact there is a more durable position but the Arab States themselves do not understand that unless a strong Arab State is created Israel will always be in a position to dominate. And the Saudi throw their oil money about and subvert the fledgling unity amongst the Arabs. Israel living side by side with the Arab State representing the fragments disconnected after the fall of the Ottomn Empire is perhaps an answer. In that case Lebanon will have some security.
Reply #40 Top
Both sides are right on this. It was done partially for the benefit of the Soviet Union, and technically it could have been considered a crime against humanity


The point that I made was in connection with a cartoon put up as a response to my post. You are certainly right that sensibilities have changed and that is why this ugly war must be brought to an end and USA can rein in its client,Israel.
Reply #41 Top
"The point that I made was in connection with a cartoon put up as a response to my post. You are certainly right that sensibilities have changed and that is why this ugly war must be brought to an end and USA can rein in its client,Israel."


But sadly you don't realize that those sensibilities have only changed in part of the world, leaving the rest to harrow and hack at them at will with little fear of their populations having the stomach to do what is necessary to really stop it. We in the US are in far, far more danger now than we ever were from the Soviets, mainly because we can no longer stomach what will be required to prevent our defeat.
Reply #42 Top
The Rome Conference has ended without any agreement on a ceasefire and the War goes on. What Israel is doing in the middle east is to obtain a carteblanche from the USA for a unilateral settlemnt of its historically rooted disputes with the Arabs. Hoping that superion fire power and a ruthless will to deploy it agai nst the most vulreable sections of the Arab socity is only making the prospect of peace more difficult. Israel has succeded in converting the whole of the Moslem world into its adversary and I do not think this was the intended consequence of its Lebanon operations.

If the USA has to salvage its torn crdibility in the region it must come out straongly in favor of a ceaefire and rein in the Israelis.By giving time to the Israelis to finish their ground operatioons, USA is only making a post war settlement difficult. What is obvious to the whole world that with USA facing huge difficulties in Iraq anothe war in the region will not serve its interest. Moreover, Israel was not preopared for the kind of Resistance that Hizbollah is giving. The Hizbollah fighters have trained for this kind of war, they know the terrain well and a full blown insurgency is already draining the IDF. Israel has succeded in only strengthening the forces of radical Islam.
Reply #43 Top
That's the operational cop-out, the psy-ops response, Bahu. The flaw in your logic is that nothing, absolutely nothing, would "weaken" the forces of radical Islam, not even the mass suicide of the Jews in Israel. The only thing that will do so is defeat.

To pretend that all Israel & the US have to do is simply accept the odd attack here & there, the occasional homicide bombing, the occasional loss of a few thousand citizens to mass murder, and all will be right with the world is pathetic. You know what, Bahu, the people you are trying to defend are scum who are reaping what they've sewn. The terrorists have "targeted" their fellow citizens by putting rocket launchers in their midst and by hiding among them. Whenever an innocent civilian dies in Lebanon, you should be screaming your condemnation of the cowards who put them in harm's way, but no, not Bahu.
Reply #44 Top
First making a personal accusation is unethical and as you know well I have never supported "terrorists" of sny stripe, American, Israeli or Arab.


American terrorist? Did I miss something on the news? I don't think you are talking about that guy who was fighting with Al-qaeda, I think it was, right? LOL>

More realistically the Israeli have in the past gone in for prisoner exchange and the Hizbollah though that with the Gaza on fire, they have an opportunity to go in for an exchane. Even if one conceded it was wrong does that result in the carnage of over 450 civilians.


So what you are saying is that Israel should just let Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers so that they can have something to trade with? That everytime Hezbollah decided to kidnap another Israeli soldier so they can exchange for their own, Israel should just say "OK sure, you give me 1 soldier, i'll give you 100 Hezbollah fighters", then these 100 Hezbollah can kidnap 4 more Israeli soldier and ask for 400 Hezbollah fighters in return and Israel should just act like it's no big deal? Are you on something or what? Do you not see the stupidity in this idea?

I would never wish for anyones death, with that said God forbid if you were ever caught in the path of an Israeli missile as an "innocent" civilian, I would not make a big deal of it. You are exactly what those "innocent" civilians are doing in Lebanon, making excuses for the terrorist actions of those they consider freedom fighters or resistance groups. If we go by your logic, police officers are the real bad guys while criminals are just trying to survive by robbing jewelry stores, mini marts and banks. They need to eat after all and things are expensive now a days.
Reply #45 Top
The flaw in your logic is that nothing, absolutely nothing, would "weaken" the forces of radical Islam, not even the mass suicide of the Jews in Israel. The only thing that will do so is defeat.


The terrorists have "targeted" their fellow citizens by putting rocket launchers in their midst and by hiding among them.


So what you are saying is that Israel should just let Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers so that they can have something to trade with?


In fact as we write this the Bush and "yo" Blair duo are trying to come up with a UN resolution asking for, exactly what I had predicted in a post "cessation of hostilities" so as to distinguish, sematically, this event from a UN mandated ceasefire. The USA and UK gave time for the Israelis to impose a military solution on the question of Southern Lebanon and the hard esistance of the Hizbollah prevented a complete military victory. Even the savage use of air power did not break the morale of the lenonese people. Israel has even targetted evacuation convoys flying under the internationally recognised white flag and if you atre not aware ofthe facts kindly read aboput what Israel is doing in Lebanon.

It is one of the best pieces of disinformation put out by the Israelui that Hizbollah uses civilians as cover. Not a single UN obverver or even a credible US correspondent like Woolf Blitzer on Annanpour have made that accusation. The arms caches of the Hizbollah are essentially sequestered in the catacombs and caves of the region and Hizbollah fighters are distinguished by a Green Uniform that they were while engfaging with Israeli troops and hence there is no justificvation for the Israelis to say that Hizbollah cannot be distinguished from civilians. To use Bush's treminology they are "enemy combatants" and not civilians.

Now who stated the whole game of taking hiostages and trading them for prisoners. Let me give you a few instances and you can check wioth any expert in the field:

Instance 1. July 28, 1989 Istraeli commandos attacked the village of Jibchit and Sheik Abdul Karim. In the process they killed a man. Israeli Foreign Ministry justified this kidnapping in the following manner and then you decide who has made kidnapping and hostage taking state policy:

Israel hoped to use the Sheikh as a card to effect an exchange of prisoners and hostages held by
Hizbollah in return for all the Shiaates held by it.

Now this is a brazen act of kidnapping and Israel has admitted as much in the passage quoted above.

Let me give you another instance.

Instance 2. In May 1994 Israeli soldiers kidnapped a prominent Lebonese politician Mustafa al-Dirani and as a chilling display of what Bush was to call "extraordinary rendition" brought him illegally to Israel. The aim of this kidnapping was to secure the release of Ron Arad an air force navigatoe perhaps held prisoner by the militants, or even the Hizbollah.

Instance 3. Fahaf another victim of Israel's policy of "extraordinary rendition " or in simple English, KIDNAPPING was held in illegal custody for 12 years in Israeli jails before being released. IN this case also the man was kidnapped to be used as a bargaining chip.

All these prisoners were held in the infamous Camp 1391.

I have given these instances to demonstrate that while I do not condone taking the Israeli soldier hostage, I just want to let you know that Israel has for long undertaken prisoner exchanges and Hizbollah had no reason to think otherwise. Even if we concede the illegality of Hizbollah's actions the savage attack on Lebones civilians has made peace impossible.
Reply #46 Top
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and no c one can forget that.


Yes, by today's standards they would be war crimes, but today's standards prefers starving children under "sanctions" as a "humane" alternative to war. Apparently "peace" is present as long as tyrants are happy... personally today's standard of peace and humanity makes me sick. Only a total fool would consider Iraq at peace during the 90s... but under today's standard, it was.

Truman made the right decision for the time and situation. The fact that what he did would be considered a war crime now says much more about our sick society than him or his time.
Reply #47 Top
It is one of the best pieces of disinformation put out by the Israelui that Hizbollah uses civilians as cover. Not a single UN obverver or even a credible US correspondent like Woolf Blitzer on Annanpour have made that accusation.



Is the UN Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs credible enough for you?


Jan Egeland, head of UN humanitarion relief has condemned what he calls this "cowardly blending" with civilians. "Hezbollah's leaders", he says, "don't seem to care the slightest bit that it is the children, the women and the civilians that bear the brunt of all of this." Actually, they revel in it. They count on television pictures of dead or dying civilians to create even more hatred in the Arab world.

More of what Mr. Egeland has to say:

Statement of Mr. Jan Egeland,

Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs
and Emergency Relief Coordinator, to the United Nations Security Council on the Humanitarian Situation in the Middle East,
New York, 28 July 2006


"At the same time, I repeatedly and publicly appealed from within Lebanon that the armed men of
Hizbollah must stop their deplorable tactic of hiding ammunition, arms, or combatants among
civilians. Using civilian neighborhoods as human camouflage is abhorrent and in violation of
international humanitarian law."


Read Mr. Egeland's entire statement here: Link


Here's what you don't seem to get. Hezbollah, Hamas, and all their kind intentionally kill civilians and have NO cumpunction about it. When Israel accidentally kills civilians during a response to one of Hezbollah's or Hamas' attacks they regret the deaths profoundly.

That is a huge difference that you constantly refuse to acknowledge.Link
Reply #48 Top
Yes, by today's standards they would be war crimes, but today's standards prefers starving children under "sanctions" as a "humane" alternative to war


They count on television pictures of dead or dying civilians to create even more hatred in the Arab world


I am glad that in a way you agree of course with some reservations.

I did read the link. Thank you. Lebanon is an extremely complezx society and the fact is the Israeli bombs do not seem to fall in Druze and Maronite and of course Christian sectors. If Lebanon is so divided then obviously any place Israel bombs must by definition be Hizbullah areas. It is that kind of reductionist logic I seek to avoid. I must add that I deplore the tactics of groups like Hamas and Hizbullah except that I do not appreciate the largescale carnage caused by Israeli bombing. In fact Hizbullah has inflicted more military casualities than civilian and of the 51 Israelis dead 27 happen to be soldiers while more than 600 lebonese have been killed for no fault of theirs.
Reply #49 Top
except that I do not appreciate the largescale carnage caused by Israeli bombing.


You don't appreciate it... well, gaaoalleee!

Are you an accountant by training, Bahu? You seem to have an accounting approach to war, one that dictates maintenance of the status quo ante since all offensives in war must be proportionate. The terrorists would laugh at your naive notions.
Reply #50 Top
Are you an accountant by training, Bahu? You seem to have an accounting approach to war, one that dictates maintenance of the status quo ante since all offensives in war must be proportionate


No I am not an accountant but you do not seem to understand that anyone with even a shred of humanity cannot condone the barbarity with which Israel has bombed civilian sectors of souther Lebanon and Beirut not to mention Gaza. Targetted killing on this scale is a war crime and Israel is able to do this only because the US government is idly standing by, if not being a downright cheerleader of the Israelis. I have no regard for what the Hizbollah and its surrogates say but a ceasefire is a must in order to prevent further bloodshed. Just think of the plight of a young mother whose story was published all over the world. She is now a refugee in Beirut University Campus having seen her 4 children killed in front of her eyes. With carnage like that you can never get peace an armistice till the next round and that is exactly what the Bush _Blair duo do not seem to understand.