Jesus of Nazareth

He would say what the Scriptures say....none of this is a "shock" to God or Jesus....in the Scriptures, Israel is God's chosen, and they have faced torment and near destruction because of that....

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here....but when evil men do evil things, it takes good men to do extreme things to deal with them....I am not sure why you ppl do not understand that sitting at a table trying to "talk it out" with these fundamentalists Muslims does not, nor will it ever, work....

You sure don't give the fundamentalist Christians that much grace....

Consider the fact that the same sort of wars were being fought there a thousand years before Jesus ever showed up. Jesus was rejected in part because he didn't advocate militant rebellion the way many Jews believed the Messiah was prophesied to.

My guess is that it wouldn't be much of a surprise. After all, look what God enabled Israel to do, and sent angels to do directly in the OT to "enemies of Israel". No offense, but God told Israel to kill every man, woman, child and goat when fighting against some enemies in the old testament, and then punished Israel for not killing them all.

Remember all that 'you can have their land because they worship other gods' stuff? I'm thinking Jesus would just see this as standard operating procedure in the Middle East.

It's all in his plan to begin with. Why would he be surprised? The pandora box of sin was opened a long time ago.

Most people believe that the Zionist movement of the time would have never gotten the support they needed to be given Israel were it not for what Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis. KFC, would you then say that the Holocaust was in God's plan, too?

KFC, would you then say that the Holocaust was in God's plan, too?

absolutely. He would have stopped it otherwise.

Death and destruction comes from Satan but God has twarted his purposes at times. Right from the beginning Satan has repeatedly attempted to destroy the Jewish lineage and God stopped his plans after a time. Remember the Pharoah in Moses time? Haman? Herod? Hitler is just one in a long line.

When you look back over their history you can see they were a nation hanging onto their fingernails more than once. For all intents and purposes this nation should not be here. God has a plan for them still. He's not done with them yet.

"absolutely. He would have stopped it otherwise. "

Wait, wait. So you are saying that anything that God doesn't stop is part of God's plan? What you just said to me basically sounds like the murder of 6 million Jews was God's will. Maybe you should clarify.

You realize that an omniscient God could know everything that ever was going to happen, and still not be the active "planner" of it all, right? Where do you get the idea that anything that happens is part of some grand plan? You can have prophesy without everything being scheduled.

absolutely. He would have stopped it otherwise.

Ouch. Tell that to the families of everyone who lost someone during that.

I can't call that comment very christian, KFC . . . God doesn't put his fingers in everybody's pie - otherwise, there would be no agency.

I believe that God planned for it to happen...but did not plan it to happen....God knew it would happen, but he did not make it happen.

Just like man and sin...He knew that Man would choose sin...but he did not make Man choose sin

All this idiot sophistry, along with the attempts to calculate how many angels are dancing on the head of this particular pin (as well as the net into which Baker is attempting to entice the 'christian' KFC - into which she's walking with her eyes wide shut) can be avoided by the realization that one of God's favorite pastimes is genocide.

Why bother worshipping something that isn't an amoral motherfucker with a twisted sense of humor?

I think all I can say is wow.

Good response.

I think all I can say is wow.

It's amazing how much a thread can change, huh? This has absolutely nothing to do with what you started this article with. Welcome to JU . . .

No, I don't think it is really a departure. I think the point of the original article is to say that Jesus would feel negatively toward what is going on in both Lebanon and Iraq. My point was, if Jesus is truly God, how Jesus would have a problem with all out war and the killing of women and children when "He" went so far as to ORDER Israel to do such in the old testament...

Wait, wait. So you are saying that anything that God doesn't stop is part of God's plan? What you just said to me basically sounds like the murder of 6 million Jews was God's will. Maybe you should clarify.

I think it's all God's plan. He knew right from the get go that the Holocaust was going to happen. Sin is not God's will. Murder is sin. Man chose sin. Man chose to rebell against God's will.

I think of Joseph at the end of Genesis. He was sold into slavery by his brothers, his coat dipped in blood brought back to his father. Sounds awful but even after Joseph's hard life being imprisioned and all God was preparing him for something bigger. Just like the Jewish nation. Joseph said about his years of trying times...."As for you, you thought evil against me but God meant it for good to bring to pass as it is this day to save much people alive."

While it didn't make sense at the time, 70 souls went down into Egypt under the protection of Joseph during a severe famine. Later after 430 years of bondage to the Egyptians 603,000 men walked out of there. God does use the enemy for his purpose as he did here. In this case they flourished during this time of adverstiy.

Peter said "Do not think it a strange thing when you are called to suffer." So why should we be surprised? Suffering exists in a world of sin. But God uses this to bring about our very sanctification. There is triumph in tragedy. Fire is hot, but it does refine; it produces precious gold and silver but the silversmith never takes his eyes off the fire. In John it says..."You will suffer." and in Romans it says "must suffer".... not you may suffer but we can be sure of it.

I believe all sufferning fits into the scheme of God's sovereignty but there are things about suffering that God has not chosen to reveal. This is where trust is really put to the test. I've read many accounts of those who kept the faith in the Holocaust..my favorite being Corrie Ten Boom of Holland. Her sister died in her arms in the camp. Thru it all she trusted God and what a testimony she walked out with.

Although scripture informs us how and why evil came about, it does not tell us why God allowed it to happen. However we do know that God is all wise and all knowing and that He has reasons for allowing things to happen that are beyond our comprehension. Job can attest to this.

I can't call that comment very christian, KFC . . . God doesn't put his fingers in everybody's pie - otherwise, there would be no agency.

then you tell me what is your explanation for the Holocaust? Why is this unChristian?

"For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is, limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death, He had the honesty and the courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile." Dorothy Sayers, Creed or Chaos pg 4 1949.

We have to remember that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now but evil came as a result of the selfishness of man. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by choosing his own way apart from God's way and it's been all downhill from there.

Although evil is real but believers know it is also temporary. It will be eventually destroyed. It's a hope that God has put inside all of us that believe. The writer to Hebrews said "without faith it's impossible to please God." There is where Faith and trust comes into play.

Most people believe that the Zionist movement of the time would have never gotten the support they needed to be given Israel were it not for what Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis. KFC, would you then say that the Holocaust was in God's plan, too?

Wasn't that the whole motive noted by Albert Pike, Baker?

You realize of course, KFC, that your ideas there fit right into the beliefs of the Westburough Baptist Church's ideology, right? There's a glaring problem with that belief. If our free will is actually "God's Plan" then God must also have planned who is and who isn't going to hell, right?

Yet, Jesus in the parable of the sheep said it wasn't His will that any should perish. The Bible says it again in 2 Peter. But if all things happen because of God's plan, then it MUST be His will that some people are 'lost'. So if Hitler was just acting out God's plan, then it could also be said that all those people who reject God are too.

So in the end you present a model wherein there is no free will at all. We are all just tinker toys being punished for playing our part in God's design. After all, He knew who was who "from the foundations of the world" right?

This is why biblical inerrancy is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. People will come to a lot of, frankly, sick conclusions in order to make sure it is all in agreement. If this god you worship KFC is no better than a child playing with toys, why do you worship him?

"Wasn't that the whole motive noted by Albert Pike, Baker?"

I'll be honest with you, AD, every time I see that name I wince. There's such a mythology that revolves around him that it is hard to tell what is true and what isn't. I've seen a lot attributed to him that people claim that there is no proof that he wrote.

I'll say that a lot of people who are racists use that excuse to hate Jews while still not hating 'God's Chosen People'. I've argued with Muslims online who claim that they aren't anti-Semitic, since Muslims are technically 'semites', and that even if they do hate Israelis they don't hate Jews because the Israelis now aren't really Jews, they are zionists.

People will go a long way to justify things with their religion. That's the problem I have with what KFC has posed here. It is a result of making a whole lot of conflicting stuff in the Bible sync up. A chain of logic like that can lead to some pretty despicable places in the hands of people who want to justify things like the holocaust.

I've seen a lot attributed to him that people claim that there is no proof that he wrote.

I understand the wincing in regards to this.

A chain of logic like that can lead to some pretty despicable places in the hands of people who want to justify things like the holocaust.

The problem is right there. You CANNOT justify the holocaust. You CANNOT justify what Stalin did either. We as human beings do not have the capacity to understand such things. All we do understand is that there is a Good and a Bad going at it whichever you believe to be.

I'll say that a lot of people who are racists use that excuse to hate Jews while still not hating 'God's Chosen People'. I've argued with Muslims online who claim that they aren't anti-Semitic, since Muslims are technically 'semites', and that even if they do hate Israelis they don't hate Jews because the Israelis now aren't really Jews, they are zionists.

I think this can be easily understood by definitions. which is semantics not semitics.

You realize of course, KFC, that your ideas there fit right into the beliefs of the Westburough Baptist Church's ideology, right? There's a glaring problem with that belief. If our free will is actually "God's Plan" then God must also have planned who is and who isn't going to hell, right?

I'm not even in the same book with those folks Baker. They are all about hate...I am not. Not even close. What do you know of the argument of freewill vs election?

So in the end you present a model wherein there is no free will at all.

How much free will did Adam and Eve have to be placed in the garden? How much free will did you have to be born into the family you now belong to? Or born at all?

I believe in both freewill and election. But I do not belive we have a choice in our birth, physical or spiritual. Jesus said himself....I have chosen you, you did not choose me.

What did he mean by that?

Yet, Jesus in the parable of the sheep said it wasn't His will that any should perish. The Bible says it again in 2 Peter. But if all things happen because of God's plan, then it MUST be His will that some people are 'lost'

no it's not his wish. We are all lost and we all are on our way to perishing that's why he reaches down and saves us. Do you think he saves us all? Is Hitler saved? Is Judas?

Keep in mind...we are all blinded with sin...born that way.

Do you think maybe you may have a problem with a Sovereign God who has control over his creation?

"I'm not even in the same book with those folks Baker. They are all about hate...I am not."

I dunno, it sounds pretty close to the same to me. According to them you can't be saved unless it is in God's plan for you to be saved, and he isn't just planning for everyone to be. Granted, they limit the list to their own church, but hey, yours is the same thing with a different list, right?

"What do you know of the argument of freewill vs election? "

Every discussion I have ever been party to concerning it ends in "Well they do seem to conflict, but we know that they can't. We just have to accept that God's mind is beyond ours and we just can't with our mortal mindrationalize the two, but by faith we know it all works out."

Which is a load to me, and just an escuse to say that a conflict in the Bible isn't really conflict. If it said 5+5 = 40, you could say the same thing. Sure, God can know what is going to happen because God would be able to see anywhere in time He wants. That's not predestination, though. When you start saying he's already CHOSEN what's going to happen to you, then the damned are in hell because he chose them to be.

At that point I'd have to just accept that the God I worship isn't the same god you are describing. The god of predestination is a pagan, anthropomorphic, bronze-age god that plays with his people and armies like toys and strikes down people for trying to keep the ark from turning over. Not my cup of tea.

"We are all lost and we all are on our way to perishing that's why he reaches down and saves us. Do you think he saves us all? Is Hitler saved? Is Judas?"

The Bible basically says that Judas was a pawn to enable Christ's resurrection. You said yourself you believe the holocaust was part of God's plan. Frankly it makes me a little ill to just repeat that sentence, but in the end you'd have no reason to suspect you wouldn't be rubbing elbows with either of them in heaven, since they were just being about God's business and all, right?

I guess every project has a few people who don't work well with others.

"Do you think maybe you may have a problem with a Sovereign God who has control over his creation?"

No, I have a problem with people than can even embrace the holocaust as part of God's plan just so they can make their irrational idea of biblical inerrancy work out. Claiming your interpretation of creation to be God's truth is blasphemous enough if you ask me, but claiming that the wrongs that happen in the world are part of God's plan is associating him with evil to validate a book.

You wanna talk about relativism? There's not a liberal Christian or Atheist that walks the earth that is more of a moral relativist than a biblical literalist. They can call good bad, right wrong, evil good, whatever they need to say in order to fix any supposed conflict in the Bible.

No, your ideas look a LOT like the Westburough Baptist Church to me. You have a problem with their hate, but to me it seems far more strange to say what they say with a smile and love in your voice. Such a philosophy makes God into a sociopath who loves his creation and predestins horror and hell for the majority of it.

You and EoIC have a lot in common, after all. He's just honest about it.

Baker, by your comments you are right. We do not worship the same God. My God is loving, compassionate and faithful. He is a God of second and third chances. He is the lover of my soul. He gave his life for me. He is always there even when I'm not there for him. He's proven himself over and over to me and my family.

God is not the one who got mankind in all this trouble. Satan did. Or do you not believe in him either? Satan is a liar, and accuser of God right from the beginning. He's in his heyday right now. His job is to break off communication between us and God. One way is his word and the other is prayer. That's what he concentrates on. Break off communication. We are like an army in the battle. If we lose contact with the commander, we lose our way. That's what his goal is. He is the direct opposite of God...maybe you're getting the two confused?

So we are all doomed as Paul wrote in Romans. We have ALL gone astray. None seeks after God, not one. But in his loving kindkness and grace, yes he reaches down and plucks us out from the sea of humanity, breathes life into us and sets us on our feet. For that you condemn God? Why? Because he doesn't save everybody?

I am not like the Westboro wackos. My heart grieves for those around me that don't know Christ. I don't have a smile on my face as you suppose. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they didn't get it. I also weep over those that don't get it and I pray. But I also realize it's not my problem. I am only responsible for what he's given me to do and converting people is not one of my jobs.

with either of them in heaven, since they were just being about God's business and all, right?

no as Jesus would say....they were about their father's business.....and it isn't the same father that Jesus had.

Herein lies the stupidity of religion.

Herein lies the stupidity of religion.

And herein lies the utter "brilliance" of Iconoclast....with nothing to say other than a idiotic statement of insult....

"God is not the one who got mankind in all this trouble. Satan did. Or do you not believe in him either?"

How does that make sense though when you say that all this evil stuff is part of God's plan? You've implied that Adam and Eve didn't have any choice but to be placed in the Garden of Eden with a tree that would bring this on all of us. You've said that Hitler's evil was part of God's plan. The Bible itself tells of how Judas was basically ORDERED to do what he did:

"John 13: [21] When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. [22] Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. [23] Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. [24] Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. [25] He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? [26] Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. [27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. [28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. [29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. [30] He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. [31] Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."

Obviously Judas was about God's business. So it is confusing when you say that Judas and the rest of the people supposedly carrying out what you claim to be God's plan won't be in heaven.

Judas was an instrument of Satan. He was called the son of perdition. Here's an excerpt from a study I put together a while back.

Perdition

(From the Latin for destruction) a term referring to the origin or goal of those who are condemned to destruction in the final judgment. It is used of Judas and of the Antichrist and his followers. It is also used to translate the Greek “destruction” elsewhere in the KJV (Phil 1:28; 1 Tim 6:9, 2 Peter 3:7)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. See Ps 41:9

Rev 17:8, 11 The beast that you saw was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not and yet is.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matt 26:24-25 The Son of man goes as it is written of him but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Then Judas, which betrayed him answered and said, Master, is it I? He said to him, You have said

Q Could Judas have been saved after all this? See also 2 Cor 7:10. Was it Godly sorrow that Judas displayed or worldly sorrow?

A Scriptures seem clear that he went into perdition. Both he and Peter betrayed him but while Peter took the road of repentance back to Christ, Judas took the road of destruction and pride and backed away from Christ taking his own life.

Now Adam and Eve....they did not have any choice in being the first humans born into the family of God...that's election. They did have a choice after being born to either obey and honor God....or not. That's freewill.

You Baker, were born into a family and you had no choice to be put in that particular family. That's election. Once in the family you had the choice to love, honor and obey your parents. That's freewill.

It's the same with the spiritual.