Israel

I think Israel is around because of the covenant too and always will be.

Some thoughts this article rattled around in my head:

Some would say blessing was on Rome as well....they prospered as we prosper, and Babylon, Greece, etc for a season.....we are very young as far as countries go, and some of the directions we head in are not honoring God.

I used to think America was God's country but I've revised that idea. Why should I think we are a country God favors? Because we have peace? Because we prosper? Because we say so? A lot of countries have those blessings and I wouldn't call them places of God. Is it because we are the "super power?"

In the history of the world God has allowed nations to rule who were His enemy. Could they claim because they were super powers they were God's country?

I think America is a place where some of the faithful live. And some of the faithful govern.

Often times I hear people interpreting Revelation. They name America as one of the countries in the end times. But you know, we may not even exist then. Yeah the beginning of the end could happen tomorrow, but it could happen long after America is gone. I am sure the faithful in Rome believed their country to be one in end times. I am sure every country of world power since Revelation was written reads itself into the scene. Doesn't make it so though, ya know?

Just some random thoughts.

Appreciated the article.

Thanks.

Often times I hear people interpreting Revelation. They name America as one of the countries in the end times. But you know, we may not even exist then

no, we're not even mentioned which makes me feel we are either disabled or not worth mentioning in the grand scope of things. Maybe we are taken over by then...we don't know. But it all centers around the middle east...not the west. Judgement if you notice in scripture always comes from the East. Even the ancient Rabbis would have their graves pointed East with hopes they would be resurrected first.

I am sure the faithful in Rome believed their country to be one in end times.

I believe the Revived Roman Empire which goes back to Daniel 2 and the vision of the statue will be a strong player in the end times. All the world powers represented in the vision, Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece were all taken over by the next world power. Rome was not taken over but fell from within. I believed for many many years (and still do) that the burning embers of the Roman Empire would someday ignite ...and I believe we are seeing that today.

We are a very very young country and sometimes I think we were put here all for this purpose....to help Israel. It's not about us at all and I agree that we have lost our way as a nation.

And some of the faithful govern

speaking of Govern.....off topic...but I heard Governor Mike of Arkansas on the radio this past week and he had some really awesome things to say. He is a very strong man of God and from what I heard it wasn't make believe. What a story he had to tell.

I am sure every country of world power since Revelation was written reads itself into the scene. Doesn't make it so though, ya know?

no, and God's judgment is pending....and when it comes, Israel will be in the center of it. Syria and Iran are also up front and center. So if this isn't the time, then it's at least a preview of coming attractions.

Thanks for the input.

I really do loathe the smug self-congratulation with which well-fed and secure Biblical talking-heads regard the miseries of other peoples' suffering. No doubt, as the twin towers were crashing down in blood and flames, KFC was sat at home hugging her bible and congratulating herself for not being among the sinners meeting their end that day.

As for your ramblings on Israel and the last days... It may not have occurred to you but at least one other world-wide sect of 'christians' believe that America itself is the promised land, not Israel, and that the mythological and poetic battles and transformations described in revelations will take place here not among the rabid dogs and stinking middens of Israel and the Middle East. I'll leave you to guess as to which sect I mean.

believe the Revived Roman Empire

I've read several historians who call American The Second Rome....that's weird.

It's not about us at all

I don't think so either. But most of the pulpits I've heard in the last decade aren't saying that...they are saying "We are the right hand of God." and things like that.

Governor Mike of Arkansas

Never heard of him...but as election time draws near I think we will be hearing a lot of new names.

So if this isn't the time, then it's at least a preview of coming attractions.

And what is old, is new again.

"As for your ramblings on Israel and the last days... It may not have occurred to you but at least one other world-wide sect of 'christians' believe that America itself is the promised land, not Israel, and that the mythological and poetic battles and transformations described in revelations will take place here not among the rabid dogs and stinking middens of Israel and the Middle East. I'll leave you to guess as to which sect I mean."

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

I wonder, how many of the people there can trace their lineage back to the tribes referred to as Israel in the Bible. Isn't there some pretty strict definitions in there as to whether or not the line is carried on dependent on the makeup of the family in question? I'm speaking hypothetically, mind you, and I am not denying anyone who wants to associate themselves, but if you are going for the literal interpretation of scripture one must wonder.

wonder, how many of the people there can trace their lineage back to the tribes referred to as Israel in the Bible

not many if any at all. All the records and such were destroyed with the disbursement of 70 AD. I do believe those geneologies that many dismiss are there for a reason. After the birth of Christ it wasn't as important anymore. Some from what I understand may have an idea of their tribe by going on their names. Those with the last name of Levi for instance might believe they are from the tribe of Levi. I'm not sure how common that is tho....from what I understand they really don't know for sure. I'm not understanding what you mean about the makeup of the family. I know being born from a Jewish mother is the most important because while you can't deny who your mother was it was harder to prove who the father was.

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

I agree that this thought is out there but again like I quoted from Jeremiah and Paul outlines in Romans, God is going to keep them alive until the end times. He's not done with this group and I believe their longevity is a testimony to that fact. While many peoples from all walks of life will be saved in the end, only the nation Israel as a whole will be saved. In other words their nation will stay intact going into the millenium kingdom and once again Jerusalem will be the center of worship.

I've read several historians who call American The Second Rome....that's weird.

I've never heard that and wouldn't believe it anyway. it doesn't matter what "people say". There are alot of opinions out there. There is also something out there called the replacement theory where Israel is replaced with the Christian Church. As God favored the Jews in the OT, he now has switched to the church in the NT. But it's very clear that the two are separate entities and that the church has been grafted in or adopted into the Abrahamic covenant which I believe is still in play here.

they are saying "We are the right hand of God." and things like that.

ya, have heard this before. I'm pretty sure God doesn't "need" us as much as those who are saying this want to believe. But I do believe he has raised America up in the last days for a purpose.....for one we were for a long time the place where all the missionaries came from. Now it seems we need missionaries to come here.

"After the birth of Christ it wasn't as important anymore."

Better decide what you mean by "nation as a whole" then. Are you saying that the entire nation of Israel will be saved in the traditional Christian way, or because they are Jews? If I recall isn't there just like 144,000 or so that make it according to Revelations? Israel the modern nation has over 6 million people right now.

The fact is if Jesus is the only way to God as you espouse, then it isn't really going to matter whether or not you are a Jew, and the number of Jews that make it are incidental. If the "nation of Israel" as a while is going to be saved, then the Bible sure as heck isn't talking about the Israel we talk about on the news, because 144,000 around 3 percent of Israel's population today.

So, frankly, this glorious Biblical thing is confusing when you try to match it up with current events. WHen you say "Whoever blesses Israel God will bless" Do you mean the other 97% that isn't going to end up so peachy? What if that 97% are the ones in charge of Israel now? Are you even sure that you and God are talking about the same Israel?

And, in the end, if the statement "no man cometh to the Father except by me" is true, then Jews don't have any head start more than anyone else, do they?

If I recall isn't there just like 144,000 or so that make it according to Revelations? Israel the modern nation has over 6 million people right now.

no, no, no. The 144,000 are going to be the messengers...sort of like the Jews for Jesus that will be the missionaries during this time. They will represent the 12 tribes and go out and witness to their fellow Jewish brothers. This is the time that Paul was talking about in Romans 11, also. Many will come to Christ......it will be God turning to them. Read Romans 11 for better clarity. We are living in the time of the Gentiles but he's going to turn back to them and the Nation will be saved.

11:25-26 says this: For I would not brothers that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. So all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the deliverer and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob.

Jews are being saved today but nothing like will happen soon. Remember what it says in Jeremiah. He's not done with them as long as the sun and the moon are in the sky.

And, in the end, if the statement "no man cometh to the Father except by me" is true, then Jews don't have any head start more than anyone else, do they

no, we are all saved the same way. Faith in Christ. Period. There is no other way. We have to walk thru the door. He is the door. There's no getting around the cross.

So, frankly, this glorious Biblical thing is confusing when you try to match it up with current even

yes, this can be confusing at first...but it's like a big puzzle with all the pieces you put together. I've had a lot of time to put these pieces together remember......

I find it interesting myself. For a long time I was quite the student studying eschatology or end times..anything I could get my hands on...not so much anymore but I do understand that many are very interested in this....reading prophecy is very much like watching the news. The countries and events seem to be falling in place expedientially and many out there are watching the news with biblical interest.

Jews are being saved today but nothing like will happen soon. Remember what it says in Jeremiah. He's not done with them as long as the sun and the moon are in the sky.

Haven't they been forsaken though? The prophecy you quote says " If heven above can be measured and the foundastions of the earth searched out beneath I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the Lord."

My reading of that is that God didn't want the Jews to understand anything of heaven above (the sky?) or the foundations of the earth below. Doesn't that mean that mining and cosmology have damned the Jewish people?

I've heard lots of revelations sermons KFC, and I've never heard the "messengers" thing re: the 144,000. It's funny to me how things people can be so certain about can change so often in a religion that claims nothing ever changes. After all, science is the one that is less trustworthy because it can't settle on anything, yet you can find a new interpretation of revelation before you can digest the last one.

Wait, I was wrong, I take that back. I have heard that from Jehova's Witnesses before. Can't remember ever hearing it from mainstream protestant ministers, but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons, either. In my opinion they aren't worth the time of people who could be focused on what is important in life.

I've seen too many 'prophets' who spent all their time pondering what was going to happen and never bother noticing what is going on with people five feet away. I call it discarding foolishness, but if you want to call it a blind spot in my biblical knowledge I am okay with that. My personal opinion is that, if Jesus is even really intended to come back as it describes, if you aren't surprised when the 5 o'clock whistle blows then you've probably been watching the clock and not doing your job.

BakerStreet:
"I've heard lots of revelations sermons KFC, and I've never heard the "messengers" thing re: the 144,000. It's funny to me how things people can be so certain about can change"......
"Can't remember ever hearing it from mainstream protestant ministers, but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons, either. In my opinion they aren't worth the time of people who could be focused on what is important in life."

Just to chime in...actually I've ALWAYS heard of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Not 144,000 total saved....the only place I ever heard that was from JWs.

Baker it is more common that you imagine (Baptists, Methodists, and every non-denominational church I've attended teaches it as witnesses.)

Tim LeHaye wrote a series of fiction books about the end times called "Left Behind"....he includes the 144,000 Jewish witnesses in them.

Yes I know its fiction. But there haven't been any "What is he talking about?" kinda articles and interviews, and if it was off the wall or deviated from the general beliefs of most Christians in the country there would be a "BAN LEHAY day" I am sure.

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

And I'm definitely of that category - at least of the one that believes that this is Israel is not the same Israel that existed before.

Like I said, call it a blind spot in my biblical knowledge if you want, but end of times prophesy is a waste of time even if you can stomach believing it. I think you'll find the general beliefs of most Christians take the book of revelations, and the oddities of many people's interpretation of such, with a grain of salt. They don't want to ban such, they just roll their eyes at it and edge away uneasily.

If you look at their target audience you'll find it isn't mainstream Christianity, not even close. There are 190 million or so people who profess CHristianity in the US, and the 30 million or so that have bought the first book don't account for the mainstream. Lehay's foisted about 65 million books the world, sure, but that's with what, 14 books now?

To each his own. No offense, but if you think evangelical Christians who believe in the revelations version of the end of the world are mainstream, well, you need to venture into the mainstream a bit more. Most people haven't worked UN black helicopter conspiracy paranoia into their religious faith.

Like I said, call it a blind spot in my biblical knowledge if you want, but end of times prophesy is a waste of time even if you can stomach believing it. I think you'll find the general beliefs of most Christians take the book of revelations, and the oddities of many people's interpretation of such, with a grain of salt. They don't want to ban such, they just roll their eyes at it and edge away uneasily.

I agree. Sure, it is fun to talk about, but as with most other debates that get Christians heated, it's really not that important. God will come when and as He pleases, and knowing His exact methods won't help us with the Great Commission.

Just to chime in...actually I've ALWAYS heard of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Not 144,000 total saved....the only place I ever heard that was from JWs.

Thank you.

Actually Baker the 144,000 Jewish witnesses is very mainstream. They are servants of God sealed during the tribulation period. I've known about this since I was a kid. Oh and btw it's different with the JW's. They think they are the 144,000. But it's clearly(with each tribe mentioned by name) the Jews.

but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons, either

there ya go!!! That's why you haven't heard this. But then again you just said you have???? Which is it?

I've seen too many 'prophets' who spent all their time pondering what was going to happen and never bother noticing what is going on with people five feet away

ya, I know....but there is a time and place for everything. I was a JW once....believe me I know. Did you know that Revelation is the only book in the bible that promises a blessing if you read it? 1:3

No offense, but if you think evangelical Christians who believe in the revelations version of the end of the world are mainstream, well, you need to venture into the mainstream a bit more

none taken......actually I've been involved in mainstream and not so mainstream. What is your definition? It was the non mainstream that were really into the bizarre beliefs about Revelation. The mainstream is more concerned about our daily living and walk with God, how we treat our neighbor and such. But that doesn't dismiss talking from time to time about end times tho. In fact most of the NT is either dealing with the first coming or the second coming. Much is said to be watchful and alert for we don't don't when he'll be coming back. But he will and when we least expect him.

There are 190 million or so people who profess CHristianity in the US, and the 30 million or so that have bought the first book don't account for the mainstream. Lehay's foisted about 65 million books the world, sure, but that's with what, 14 books now?

People are very interested in this subject...naturally so. Non Christians and Christians alike from my experience. I'm not sure how many of LaHaye's books were sold. But I know our library has them so many don't have to go out and buy them. I heard on the radio once someone on a plane saw dozens of people reading his books when they first came out. I read some of them and found them to be fair in their representation of Revelation in a fictional sort of way.

My reading of that is that God didn't want the Jews to understand anything of heaven above (the sky?) or the foundations of the earth below. Doesn't that mean that mining and cosmology have damned the Jewish people?

Hi Cacto, ...................so are you saying that we can measure the universe and the earth below?

P.S. Sorry to address you off-topic here, but Aeryck has blacklisted me and I can't reply on his blog. I generally don't come down hard on people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible in daily life. If the belief that the Bible is inerrant just effects you, then by all means it is none of my business.

In discussions on particular topics like evolution and capital punishment, though, people use the Bible as an authoritative reason behind why think think things that pertain to me and my nation should change. In that light, you'd better darn well be able to PROVE that it is authoritative. When people want to impose their interpretation of the Bible on politics,, I hold their arguments to a higher standard that the Bible simply doesn't fulfill.

You say it is my "belief" that the Bible isn't inerrant. Well we have to have reasons to suppose a particular object is divine when no other objects are. If I were to say my shoes were holy relics, you'd demand some sort of proof, wouldn't you? What if the divine nature of my shoes was espoused by enough people to effect your day-to-day life, even if you don't believe it?

Again, sorry to address this here, but I can't there. I just think you'd have a problem if our national policy on terrorism was based upon someone's belief that the Koran was inerrant. The fact that you posted this one in current events makes me believe this goes beyond "belief" i.e. religion for you.

P.P.S Aerykck has even delete my comment that you were referring to, so I guess it is moot, anyway. I've watched my points drop a little every time I post there, so I suppose he's banging away at the trolling button, too. I think he'd be shocked how much HIS would drop if I was that childish.

Hi Cacto, ...................so are you saying that we can measure the universe and the earth below?

Not totally, but we're pretty close. We can find oil and precious minerals without digging and we know what lies beneath us and how the earth is constructed. We can determine the size, shape and rough composition of extra-solar stuff and we've been able to predict the passage of the stars for quite some time.

As you know my knowledge of scripture is limited. Are there qualifications made on that clause in the early Hebrew? Or does our understanding of the universe constitute the damnation of the Jews?

generally don't come down hard on people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible in daily life.

Really? Well you have here. You may be surprised to learn that I as well as most in our congregation believe in capital punishment. And as far as politics, there isn't alot in scripture but to obey the laws of the land. It's mostly moral not political that comes up here. Like for instance, abortion, stem cell, homosexual marriage, divorce. Most of these things end up in the politcal arena, yes, but they are moral and ethical subjects that are politicized. BTW being a biblical Christian, I'm against all these things knowing that these things serve only to hurt us.

The fact that you posted this one in current events makes me believe this goes beyond "belief" i.e. religion for you.

Well this is about Israel. They are the current event of the day wouldn't you say? Many do believe, as I do, that the evening news is like reading the prophetic scriptures also so I guess I could have put in in either one.

so I suppose he's banging away at the trolling button, too

hahahah I never hit the trolling button even once......even to those that hate me and let me know all about it constantly. But I think you did come down pretty hard on him.......but you do me too.....and I haven't blacklisted you.......yet!!! ..... Actually I'm not into that. I felt like it a few times but refrained......not you but someone else. But I'm all about open communication.

Also, on the Koran thing......that's not too far fetched imo. I always believed we were going down, just not sure how. Maybe from within like Rome.

Or does our understanding of the universe constitute the damnation of the Jews?

no there are no clauses here. There is no total damnation of the Jews in scripture. If you look at the passage in question you see that God is saying that these ordinances are a sure way of showing his faithfulness to them. I don't think we are anywhere close to measuring the solar system right now if ever. They keep finding new galaxies from what I read....and I'm not an expert on astronomy....so maybe someone else can enlighten us here.

"Really? Well you have here. You may be surprised to learn that I as well as most in our congregation believe in capital punishment."

People in everyday life don't invite comment on their beliefs normally. When they do, I give the opinions they ask for. When you post to the forums here, and then pretty harshly compare your beliefs to other peoples, you invite dissent. Aeryck is bottomless in his condemnation of the US death penalty.

You characterized evolution as a religion and now present the fact that we'd better be supporting Israel so God will bless us. Evangelicals in America are trying their darndest to effect public policy based upon their idea that the Bible is inerrant, and want all the quirky resulting ideologies to impact our policy.

So when you promote creationism as equally valid as evolution or propose that our nation will prosper if we support the current incarnation of Israel, I ask why. You say because the Bible tells us so. Is it that odd to you that people, weighing the prospect of seeing their nation led by a book, would demand to know on what authority the Book speaks?

If scientologists, biblical literalists, whoever want to believe what they believe personally, fine, I have no problem with that, as silly as I might believe it to be. When they take it a step further and start imposing their will on the law, the government, etc., based upon those beliefs, though, I have a say since it is my country too. If you are going to suggest a change in the way our nation as a whole behaves, then you open the discussion of the merits of your argument.

If you look at the passage in question you see that God is saying that these ordinances are a sure way of showing his faithfulness to them. I don't think we are anywhere close to measuring the solar system right now if ever. They keep finding new galaxies from what I read....and I'm not an expert on astronomy....so maybe someone else can enlighten us here.

Sure, but look at the quotation again:

If heven above can be measured and the foundastions of the earth searched out beneath I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the Lord."

The problem is though that this is increasingly being done. We are measuring the heavens and searching out beneath the foundations of the earth. I think the Jews should be worried if they take that sentence seriously. They'll be cast off any century now. Sure, new galaxies and star systems are being generated all the time from the centrepoint of the universe (apparently every galaxy is moving away from that point at a roughly even speed) but with the increasing in computing speeds there's no good reason we won't eventually be able to map everything we can see in the heavens. Most of that's been done for a while. Let's just hope there aren't any Jewish astronomers or geological surveyors out there.

but if you think evangelical Christians who believe in the revelations version of the end of the world are mainstream, well, you need to venture into the mainstream a bit more.

Baker I am not sure what you mean here...I do "venture into the mainstream." Every two to three years I move to another part of this country and go into many many churches looking for a church home.

They all preach Revelation at some point.

You are right in that no one knows the day or the hour....and most of the other details are speculation.....

But I've never until today heard the 144,000 witnesses as anything other than that.

I was using LeHaye as an example because even if people don't agree with the way he sees the end times, they haven't called him a liar and banned his books. Most see it as possible ONE way it can all come about.

There is nothing that makes me cringe more than those people who go around giving seminars and speeches on the end times.

What about now?

Tomorrow can take care of itself.

When they take it a step further and start imposing their will on the law, the government, etc., based upon those beliefs, though, I have a say since it is my country too. If you are going to suggest a change in the way our nation as a whole behaves, then you open the discussion of the merits of your argument.

would you like to start on history next Baker? Let's start with the 37 volumes of Washington's letters for a start and see how much changes have happened in 200 years. ......and it's not going "my" way believe me.

We all fight for what we believe in. We put an x in the box that best represents our worldview. I put an x on those things that best represent a biblical worldview. I believe alot of things are happening because many with the opposing worldview are winning and changing or making our laws. We almost had federally funded stem cell research voted in this week. I would be against that....but guess what? It's only a matter of time. Most likely the next prez will vote it in.

It's already happening at Harvard.......this is where we're going. This is, imo, going in the same direction that Hitler did with his medical experiements he did during the Holocaust.

Link

No, Baker, the evangelicals are losing this war......not winning it. But of course having that biblical worldview, I understand this is going to happen. Jesus said to expect it....so I'm not all bent out of shape here. But I've read the end of the story......we win!!! So I don't mind losing so much now although I still do the right thing by doing my part now. I vote.

Cacto,.....you're a hot ticket. It's looking like you're not in favor of the Jews here. I'm hoping this isn't wishful thinking on your part. I think we're smart stuff too, but I'm pretty sure God made this promise with the belief that it ain't gonna happen. You have to read the whole thing in context. Go to Jeremiah and read chap 31.

Cacto,.....you're a hot ticket. It's looking like you're not in favor of the Jews here. I'm hoping this isn't wishful thinking on your part. I think we're smart stuff too, but I'm pretty sure God made this promise with the belief that it ain't gonna happen. You have to read the whole thing in context. Go to Jeremiah and read chap 31.

I don't believe in the god of the old testament and to be honest I don't think many Jews do, let alone Christians. Most people would rather leave the fire and brimstone for them that want it. But for those that do the advances of science in the fields of astronomy, cosmology, navigation, geology and scanning technologies must be a source of considerable worry. I find it odd that people can live believing that sort of thing. I would consider it extremely ironic if it turns out that only the Amish and the poorest 3rd worlders make it to heaven (them being the only ones ignorant of astronomy and geology).