To The Christians, Wherever They May Be

Mason, if I credited you, would you mind if I shared this with people outside of JU? LOL, this DESERVES to be a wide-spread email forward.

Really, really great article. I hope it gets featured.

#1 by Texas Wahine Wed, July 05, 2006 10:58 PM [Texas Wahine] Mason, if I credited you, would you mind if I shared this with people outside of JU? LOL, this DESERVES to be a wide-spread email forward. Really, really great article. I hope it gets featured.

Thanks very much Tex. I'm flattered. I don't think it's all that great, just a rant with a slight splash of my slightly twisted sense of humor, but in answer to your question, no I don't mind.

,  good one Mason!  something for every single one of us,  whether it's about religion or just how to "be" in the world!

Go back to what I was doing??  awwwwwwwwww

surfing....

 

What's funny is that although I'm sure some people would claim that I'm one of those people you speak of, I agree with all of your tips and definitely practice them.
I do agree with many of your points, although I think that Christians also try too hard trying to please others that they end up demonizing Jesus Himself forgetting that He was quite vicious to the pharisees. I'm sure they thought He was self-righteous and pompous. They certainly thought Him offensive. In fact, people often act as if only the fundies would be offended by Jesus today. I'm sure the more liberal type would be offended as well and would team up with the fundies (including the non-Christian ones) to have him crucified.
Actually though, I don't think either would crucify Him, but they'd certainly both go: "Jesus, you need to be more like us true Christians."

So a Christian walks into a bar to be with "sinners"....but he can't talk about Christ...hahahahaha.

Sorry that sounds like one of those "a man walks into a bar" kinda jokes.

Seriously though, I agree with most of what you say here Mason. I don't care if people talk about God all the time...as long as they are speaking specifically about what He is doing in their life. That leaves no room for argument, or interpretation and all the hairy things people fight over.

Having someone say, "I was getting worried about my son being away from home. I prayed about it and then the next day in my reading I saw the verse "Be Still and know that I am God." and I felt so much better."

To me that is just as acceptable as someone saying "I was getting worried about my son being away from home. So I ran 5 miles, ate some ice cream and felt soooo much better!"

The reason I point this out is because when someone is talking with God constantly in their head and seeking His face.....it will bleed over into their conversation a lot.

Just think if you spent 24/7 with another person...how hard it would be to talk to anyone else without mentioning your significant other....and as the years pass how much harder...hahah. Every significant event, every occasion, would involve that other person.

Does that make sense?

But I agree it is pointless to evangelize people who don't want to hear it. We are to be ready with our testimony/witness whatever you want to call it when asked...or when compelled by the HS to speak.

God brings people to Him with open arms....not a baseball bat.

What's funny is that although I'm sure some people would claim that I'm one of those people you speak of, I agree with all of your tips and definitely practice them

No, you THINK that you practice them.    To me (and I'm sure I'm not alone) you ARE one of the people Mason's talking about.  You and KFC are both prime examples of pharisees in my book.  You both crow about what you do: "look what I did just so's I'd be pleasing to god!  I'm following ALL of his rules!!!!!!!!!!!!"  and I find it insufferably sickening.

It's christians like you that drove me away from the church and then from christianity. 

Sorry Mason, but I've been wanting to say that for weeks.

I really enjoyed this article. My parents and I often have this discussion and I can say that for a long period of time I was guilty of doing all those things. (gotta love being raised in the church) but I think that I've grown. I still have sel-righteous (sp) indignant moments but I'm working on it. I realize that not everyone wants to hear what I believe and there's no reason to throw it in their face. I think I can believe and set an exaple without bringing God into everything. I used to hate it when my mom would listen to a song or watch a movie and say "this song is so spiritual" or "these must be christian singers" or "look at the message in this song" I would just roll my eyes (and I still do) or when she'd bring up the bible and what it said in EVERY conversation... but she's gotten better, and that has been good for me and everyone else

so.... very well written as most of your articles are.

I really don't see what KFC has said or done to bring that kind of venom, dharma. She's promoted creationism pretty hard, but other than that has there been anything else? Satan's Advocate there, I can see. It's one thing to post an article that says people are shallow if they don't understand the Bible, but I'm not seeing much from KFC that warrants calling her a pharisee.

The times I used the term I was pointing out the folly of considering one's own interpretation of the Bible to be more reliable than one's eyes, ears, and mind. That doesn't mean I think she's a pharisee, though, just that if we aren't careful our beliefs about reality can be more authoritative to us than reality.

M, great, great article! I particularly liked #7! Don't worry, I don't belong to a particular denomination anymore myself, it's not a crime if you don't! If you're a Christian, it doesn't matter where you are or where you go in my book. It's who you are as an individual and knowing yourself that's key. Too many people take the good book too literal.

terrific article mason, sounds like good set of living standards for EVERYONE to follow.

I realize that not everyone wants to hear what I believe and there's no reason to throw it in their face.

This is at the heart of love isn't it?  

Very wise woman!

I used to hate it when my mom would listen to a song or watch a movie and say "this song is so spiritual" or "these must be christian singers" or "look at the message in this song" I would just roll my eyes (and I still do) or when she'd bring up the bible and what it said in EVERY conversation

HAHAHAHA.

But you are her child and she was being obedient to God in doing that...We are commanded to teach our children in the ways they should go....and to discuss the wisdom in scripture when getting up, when laying down, when walking down the street....so she was doing her job.

Maybe she's "better" because you are grown now?

Anyway, I chuckled when I read that....and wondered if my boys are gonna make the same complaints.

I'm not seeing much from KFC that warrants calling her a pharisee.

Did you read the article where she proudly proclaimed that her kid slept on the sidewalk rather than sleep in the same room as his girlfriend? I did. How about the one where she said that her son had been saved from death in a car accident because god has a plan for him? I read that one too.

I find that the people who espouse TRUE christianity are the ones who go about it quietly, who walk the walk rather than talk the talk. ParaTed, for example. Gideon for another example. BlueDev and his brother. Those guys are the real McCoy, imo. They don't wave their faith in other people's faces, they don't loudly proclaim to be this and that and the other. They go about their business quietly - but if you ask them, they'll tell you. Ted and I have spent hours talking about faith and god and the love that only comes with knowledge of god and the divine. Does he continually blog about how holy he is, about what a devout mormon he is? No. He might mention it every once in a while, but even then it's not in a 'look what I'm doing for god! See me being a christian!' way.

Sometimes it's all about perception, Baker. Unfortunately, I'm not the only person who percieves this about some of the Christians here, KFC and Penultimate being two of the worst offenders.

"Did you read the article where she proudly proclaimed that her kid slept on the sidewalk rather than sleep in the same room as his girlfriend? I did. How about the one where she said that her son had been saved from death in a car accident because god has a plan for him? I read that one too. "

Eh, no offense, but the pharisees weren't villains because they stated their beliefs openly. If she believes her son did the right thing by sleeping on the sidewalk or that his life was spared because of God, she has the right to openly state her beliefs. You differ with those beliefs, granted, but you differ with many of mine, too. Am I a pharisee for blogging on them?

No, the difference is a pharisee would go around telling people they'd better get 'right' or God won't spare THEIR lives the next time they are in an accident. A pharisee would spend their time worried about other people's sons instead of praising their own. I don't think either example really demonstrates a bad attitude, though I do differ with the beliefs.

I think part of your problem with this is the venue, dharma. These are blogs, not conversations or tv advertisements. We all write our personal feelings down here, and express who we are as much for ourselves as anyone else. I don't believe for a second that a Christian, however fervent, is any less of a Christian for stating their beliefs openly.

Where MasonM's article comes into play is how people interact with others. Is she coming to your blog and comaring her kids to yours? Is she offering to the world how their lives could be better if everyone was as holy as she is? I'm just not seeing KFC judging other people the way you are portraying her to be.

You talk a lot about your work helping people. How would it make you feel if I were to say "Hey, for God's sake, shut up. We all know you are a saint, get over it!" I would never do that, because I understand the context of your blog, why we do what we do, and basically because of the fact that I believe that you are what you project.

I don't think any of us has any place saying that beliefs should be held close to one's vest. We all constantly impose our beliefs on the world through our blogs, whether they be moral, political, whatever. To say that people who are very religious had better not do that is hypocritical, frankly.

If you see someone who doesn't 'walk the walk', fine, call them on it, but there's no reason to tell them they can't 'talk the talk' when we can't shut up. The fact that we aren't religious shouldn't give us more freedom to express ourselves, should it?

Mason, interesting article.  You have a debate going on.  I will just be a spectator.

I appreciate all of the comments folks, and thank you. I am reading each and every one but at this time I'm just going to allow this to go where it will without replying directly to any particular ones. I don't do this out of rudeness, but rather to see where it goes whithout my direct interference.

Just call it quiet observation, or an experiment, whichever you prefer.

Good article. Here's a saying a good friend gave me.....

Thank you Lord for granting me this new day in my life.
Especially since I loused up yesterday so badly.
Amen

Emphasis is on "I loused up"

I find that the people who espouse TRUE christianity are the ones who go about it quietly

I think this was once my view also, but I came to see that, in deciding what was 'true' christianity I was trying to impose my own idea (with its cuddly eastern flavour) of what christianity should be on the reality. (BakerStreet's comments have had a lot to do with opening my eyes on this one).

Nowadays, I simply agree that 'true' christianity is whatever christians say it is, and it really has nothing much to do with a non-christian like me. The fact that they can disagree so ferociously amongst themselves, of course, doesn't make it any easier.

Saint Francis preaching to the birds is 'true' christianity, but so is the zeal of the inquisitor Torquemada. Gentle Jesus, Meak and Mild is true christianity, but so is 'Onward Christian Soldiers!'. The cuddly love-fest of happy-clappydom is true christianity, but so is High Church pomp and ritual. If Satan's Penultimate Advocate believes that the essence of the faith is a razor-sharp 'attitude', swearing at opponents on-line and being rude, aggressive and obnoxious, then I'll accept that too, and simply decide it's not for me.

I do feel though a small rush of chivalrous impulse to come to the defence of KFC. I've made plain my disagreement with her style of religion both in comments left on other blogs and in an article of my own. However, I've never had the feeling that she was ever dishonest or hypocritical in anything she has said... just wrong!

Of course, to some extent we do reflect our personalities in our religious choices (and this is where I get to plug the Holy Way of the Miltant Fence-sitters ), but even so, we shouldn't confuse the messenger with the message. Not liking what someone has to say, shouldn't automatically mean not liking that person, and full kudos to people like KFC and Tova who make that distinction in what they write here really clearly.

Another reason I think we find these discussions difficult is that what we believe often seems so blindingly obviously true to us, that we are astonished to find that people can disagree with us. We therefore begin to believe it must be because of some flaw in their character, unable to accept that it could just be honest intellectual disagreement.

I think that how we handle difference and disagreement is right at the heart of religious life (in any religion). It's the sharp end at which we have to put into practice, right here and now, whatever wisdom and compassion we've been able to pick up along the way.

I'm not quite sure and am quite shocked to be honest at the venom displayed in my direction by certain ladies here. I don't think I've said one nasty hateful thing to any of them but I seem to be in their line of fire. For what?

Did you read the article where she proudly proclaimed that her kid slept on the sidewalk rather than sleep in the same room as his girlfriend? I did. How about the one where she said that her son had been saved from death in a car accident because god has a plan for him? I read that one too.

I see alot of parroting going on here. Dharma, LW and TW are all saying the same things. I wrote one paragraph on this. ONE. This is not two articles but one Dharma, and it was titled "The Car Accident" and in it I gave credit to God honoring my son cuz he honored God's. That's it. Am I getting crucified for this? I'm sorry it upset you all. I'll be careful not to mention anything like this again. Will they make you happy?

One thing you're not taking into account, is the family members I have that read my blog for updates on my kids. So I write positive things. I don't trash them. Would it make you happy if I did? Then you can feel sorry for me? That's what you all do and I don't get involved in your pity parties nor do I criticize you for them. I just ignore it.

Thanks to Baker and Chak. Even tho we disagree at times....alot actually, I genuinely enjoy chatting with you as well as many other JU folk. I think we do so in a respectful manner and I continue to continue that way.

I find that the people who espouse TRUE christianity are the ones who go about it quietly,

see this is it in a nutshell. Keep quiet right Dharma? That's what you want me to do. I know that. I'm quite aware of where you're coming from and I don't push my beliefs on you now do I? But you know what? If you needed help in any way, I'd be the first to help when the rest have left you alone.

Jesus had great crowds following him around. How quiet do you think he was when he overturned the tables? Or when he was blasting out the Pharisees? Take a look at Peter and Paul and see how quiet they were. Peter came right out and boldly declared that he would not shut up because he was on God's schedule, not man's.

I also am on God's schedule, not woman's.

You had 7 tips. Isn't 7 the devils number?

But seriously, this is a really good article, Mason. I have a friend who introduced me to a musician mate of his, at a pub, standing at the bar. I had a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. The first thing this guy said to me was 'So, do you believe in the Lord, our God?". I laughed at him, turned to my friend and asked if the guy was for real. Unfortunately, my friend said he was. That pretty much ended the conversation there. There are times and places, as you well pointed out. This was neither.

 

Isn't 7 the devils number?

Nope.  Seven is the number of "completion" or means "completely."  It is often associated with God....6 might be the number you are thinking about....one short of complete..hehe;)  (I know this because Tova is the Hebrew equivalent of "God is Good"...and I chose 7 to make it be...God is good completely!)

and full kudos to people like KFC and Tova who make that distinction in what they write here really clearly.

Wow Chak thanks.  I have to say I didn't really join JU thinking I might be in "religious" discussions.  Of course I didn't know much about JU when I joined.  The truth is, KFC is a much stronger and more learned advocate for Christ than I am at this moment in time.

I'm still ironing out the kinks in some ideas about God I made/learned which were wrong and I'm more a Work in Progress....haha.  Life application is where I need more work.

Thanks for the kind words though.  I appreciate them.  I think highly of KFC so I don't mind being lumped in with the likes of her!

I don't agree with your points entirely as written, but agree with the spirit of them, at least. I try to live out my faith as best I can, and encourage others to do the same.

One note, though: the people who need this advice most are the ones who are least likely to receive it. But, good notes all the same.

Mason

Insightful post!

see this is it in a nutshell. Keep quiet right Dharma? That's what you want me to do. I know that. I'm quite aware of where you're coming from and I don't push my beliefs on you now do I?

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing such words as manipulation. Personally, I don't see the offense that some take to differing beliefs. Then again, I live in California, and even though I, a conservative, live in a conservative city, there are liberals here and they can be vocal. Personally, I respect vocalness even if it offends to silence in the name of appeasing others. Even if I disagree with them (sometimes quite strongly), at least they are serious enough about their ideas that they'll fight for them rather than keep them locked up lest they offend somebody with them. I guess as somebody who has friends from diverse backgrounds, I'm not as offended when somebody thinks I'm wrong as they are when somebody thinks they're wrong.