Jesus was a Muslim... Didn't you know that?

Or, why Jesus isn't a Christian

I have seen my Lord with the eye of my heart, and I said: "Who are You?" He said:"You."
(Diwan al-Hallaj, M. 10)

Your Spirit mixed with my Spirit little by little, by turns, through reunions and abandons.
And now I am Yourself, Your existence is my own, and it is also my will.
(Diwan al-Hallaj)

ana'l -Haqq - I am the Truth.
(this is the saying which apparently earned al-Hallaj his martyrdom - al Haqq also means God)

In the year 922 CE a man, al-Hallaj, utterly unknown in the West (though widely known in the Muslim world, and revered as a Sufi mystic, poet, and teacher) came before the legal and religious authorities of his day and, in an an ecstatic trance, uttered the words recorded above - ana'l-Haqq - I am the Truth, by which he meant that he had attained to such unity with God that he embodied in his own person the love of God for Man, the love of Man for God, to such a degree that he had become (in the words of the Jesus of the Christian tradition) the way, the truth, the life -

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

for his temerity in making so bold a statement, al-Hallaj was executed, by crucifixtion.

I believe that Jesus the man lived, breathed, exercised his ministry as a prophet, and died pretty much as the Gospels report these events. I do not believe that Jesus the man was the Son of God, nor do I believe that he died for my sins and is the means of redemption. Though I could once say in all sincerity that his is the only name on which a man may call in order to be saved, I can no longer say so because I no longer believe that to be true.

Indeed, I have come to believe that I am my own salvation (my own Jesus) just as much as I am my own damnation (my own Adam). I'm little inclined to repeat what I've written elsewhere in defence of such a statement. Those who are interested, go read here (Link).

The 'Christ' of conventional Christianity is actually a form of blasphemy, the idolatry of a man and a prophet based on the propaganda of the tent-maker Paul, who was more determined to preach a 'christ' consonant with the ancient Hebrew scriptures (and so vindicate himself and his people) than he was to affirm that one more Messenger had come, preaching the same message that all the other Messengers had preached: worship God and love your neighbour better than you love yourself.

Since I believe that the spirit of God is infinitely more than the spirit of 'the Christ' I see no reason why that same spirit might not just as readily visit a Sufi poet and mystic as a Jewish carpenter - and in this sense 'Jesus' was indeed a Muslim. Those of you who read the linked article will encounter the Pentagrammaton, the five letter word that proceeds from the Tetragrammaton which is the closest thing that exists to an actual Name for 'God'.

I'm going to quote myself, from that same linked article.

Anyone who would be saviour to himself or others must be able to unite the Divine with the physical, overcome all opposites within himself, and at the same time maintain that tension in unity which is the source of all poetry and prophecy. It is this act of overcoming and submission which is designated by the term 'Jesus'. If you pronounce the Pentagrammaton in Hebrew it becomes 'Yeh-ha-shu-ah' which is usually translated as 'Joshua'. In the Greek of the New Testament it became 'Yay-su', which in English became 'Jesus'.

Jesus the Prophet (in whom I believe); Jesus the God-form (in whom I believe and whom I honor - though I give him no allegiance and he holds no place in my Ritual practice); and 'Jesus' the vocalization of the Pentagrammaton, in which I breathe and move as a fish breathes and moves in the sea; are fundamentally different entities. And all are equally different from 'Jesus the Christ', that blasphemous aberration and idolatrous figment whom most 'Christians' worship without ever knowing that, even according to the tenets of their own faith, this very act of worship is actually a damnable sin.

Jesus the Prophet was, as the Muslims attest, both a prophet and a man. Jesus the God-form is the actuation, the 'making real' in spiritual realms, of the veneration given (erroneously) to Jesus the man over 20 centuries. And Yeh-ha-shu-ah is a proceeding of the Spirit from the utterly unknowable, incomprehensible and Nameless Abyss that is 'God'.

And none of them have anything remotely to do with abomination that most 'Christians' profess to worship even while being utterly ignorant of the true nature of what they claim as God.

Which is why Jesus was never a Christian.

19,308 views 53 replies
Reply #2 Top
So he wasnt a Jew?
Reply #3 Top
We are told in the Bible that there would be many anti-christs so you are just one of many. If you really are your own Jesus then I offer you a challenge. Have someone drain the blood from your body, place you in a sealed room with many guards posted outside the door who have been informed that they will be executed if they fail in their duty. Then wait three days, cause the guards to fall asleep, open the door, walk out and come eat with me. If you can do that then I will believe you. If you can't then have no ground on which to stand.
Reply #4 Top
3 by ABass
Mon, June 12, 2006 10:23 PM


Reply #5 Top
" We are told in the Bible that there would be many anti-christs so you are just one of many."


Oh, please, don't flatter him, it will only make it worse. Tell him he's a good Christian just temporarily astray, or accuse him of being one of those wiccans that wear the funny hats and make a lot of perfume. For heaven's sake, don't make a 'threat to Christianity' out of him. He'll never come down from that...
Reply #6 Top
hey Baker don't spoil the fun, I was kinda hoping he'd fall for it and make like a dead guy.
Reply #7 Top
hey Baker don't spoil the fun, I was kinda hoping he'd fall for it and make like a dead guy




That was funny...

~L
Reply #8 Top
Now why don't you tell me I'm wrong, substantiate your point of view with reasoned argument and a selection of scripture to support your reasoning, and come to conclusions that can be debated.

That's what I would expect of the likes of BakerStreet. The rest of you will do what the frightened and insecure always do... which is run away. And as to Abass's 'challenge'... wasn't it Jesus that refused a sign to the Pharisees? If your God refused to prop up the faith of the faithless and the cowardly with signs why should I do anything else?

Abass. Go find a corpse and say to it the words that Jesus spoke to Lazarus. Then bring me the former corpse, walking, eating, breathing, and speaking. Then perhaps I'll believe you to be more than a fool who blasphemes.
Reply #9 Top
And KFC?

You might do well to remember that while you have no power to convert, you have an obligation as a Christian to testify to the power of your Lord when challenged by a non-believer. Or are you to afraid to try? Most zealots are zealots because they have no foundation to their faith, only terror that they are deceived.

Remember what was delivered to you, as a believer, by the Apostle Peter -

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Or is it too much for you to bear, that you be required to give a reasoned argument for your faith? If you cannot, then your silence testifies against you that you are no Christian at all but a liar, a deceiver, and a hypocrite.

Speak, believer. Or keep the silence that condemns you.
Reply #10 Top
The rest of you will do what the frightened and insecure always do... which is run away


I don't run that often. Actually, I don't call it running. I call it picking and choosing my fights. Granted, my choices haven't been all that great.

If your God refused to prop up the faith of the faithless and the cowardly with signs why should I do anything else?


Please?


Anywho...Me, I'm just happy how I am in regards to "religion," and all of that.

~L
Reply #11 Top
To BakerStreet:

pull your thumb out of your ass and produce something more than 'smart' comments in response to a reasoned article. Or I'll start believing what I've suspected for awhile now - that you're grossly overrated, both as a writer and an intellect. And again, if you refuse the challenge then your silence condemns you.
Reply #12 Top
To Lucas:

nothing wrong with being happy in your religion. But if you can't provide an account of why you believe then you're a lousy ad for that religion.
Reply #13 Top
nothing wrong with being happy in your religion. But if you can't provide an account of why you believe then you're a lousy ad for that religion.


Well, you see, I am of no religion. I don't care for organized religion. I do believe in a supreme being. I just don't classify it, name it, etc...
Reply #14 Top
"Or I'll start believing what I've suspected for awhile now - that you're grossly overrated, both as a writer and an intellect. And again, if you refuse the challenge then your silence condemns you."


Oh, overrated without a doubt; writer, intellect, animal trainer, ballroom dancer... whatever you like. Such obvious things require no condemnation, do they? I think I'll go on warming my thumb.
Reply #15 Top
To Lucas:

not caring for organized religion and believing in a supreme being does not mean you are part of no religion. It means you're part of the hoplessly confused lazy-ass religion - which is very nearly the same thing as saying you're a Christian, or at least what presently passes for a Christian.

Believing in something generally means, at the very least, being able to name what you believe in, along with being able to give an outline of the nature of your belief and why you believe what you believe.

And if you can't manage that minimum then, Lucas, in your case it really would be better to keep silent and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and demonstrating to the world that you actually are a fool - as you have just done.
Reply #16 Top
To BakerStreet:

Do so. While you're at it, move your thumb around a little and give your brains a stir. Perhaps then you'll be able to come up with something on the topic and which furthers the discussion.

As you admit, you're grossly overrated.
Reply #17 Top
Since I believe that the spirit of God is infinitely more than the spirit of 'the Christ' I see no reason why that same spirit might not just as readily visit a Sufi poet and mystic as a Jewish carpenter - and in this sense 'Jesus' was indeed a Muslim.


It's also true through an appropriate reading of Muslim theology. Unfortunately I don't have a Qur'an at hand so can't give you sura, but I do remember reading that Muslims believe they are descendents of the same familial line as the Jews. Both descend from Abraham, it's just the mother that differs. By the same token Islam accepts Jesus as one of the earliest prophets and therefore in that one a member of the religion, although admittedly a member of it in its formative years.

So historically Jesus was as much a Muslim as he was a Jew, or at least he's claimed as such by Islam.
Reply #18 Top
Believing in something generally means, at the very least, being able to name what you believe in, along with being able to give an outline of the nature of your belief and why you believe what you believe


Not necessarily. To me, the idea that there is *no* supreme being, (Whatever it is) is illogical/impossible. I believe that, whatever your faith is, (THAT is what I call my case. Faith. NOT religion. Religion is a expedient of humans.) you do not need a church to preach to you. You can find your own way.

not caring for organized religion and believing in a supreme being does not mean you are part of no religion. It means you're part of the hoplessly confused lazy-ass religion - which is very nearly the same thing as saying you're a Christian, or at least what presently passes for a Christian.


It doesn't matter whether I am technically part of any religion. I don't consider myself to be. It is my will, that makes the big difference. I refuse to be associated with religion.

And if you can't manage that minimum then, Lucas, in your case it really would be better to keep silent and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and demonstrating to the world that you actually are a fool - as you have just done.


Have you been talking to your wife lately?


~L
Reply #19 Top
To Lucas:

I usually do. She keeps you around for the same reason I'm willing to - it's fun to kick the helplessly immature and defenseless now and then.

THAT is what I call my case. Faith. NOT religion.


Faith in what, Lucas? The Supreme Artichoke? The Unavoidable Return of the Infallible Moonbat? And what, precisely, do you so despise about organized religion?

Religion is a expedient of humans


If religion is expedient (serves one's interest or purpose, is able to meet a sudden or urgent need) just what is it that you hold in such contempt?

And one more question: do you actually know anything at all about the contents of your own head? Because you appear not to.

(See? It's that kicking puppies thing again... I couldn't help it though... the Infallible Moonbat made me do it)
Reply #20 Top
To cactoblasta:

So historically Jesus was as much a Muslim as he was a Jew, or at least he's claimed as such by Islam.


Certainly there's a shared heritage between them, and a familial line, and in the interest of clear thinking that in itself is something worth pointing out - especially in our current circumstances. That's only a part of the point I was making however (a point made for the benefit of self-satified ignoramuses such as KFC) - which is that 'Jesus Christ', supposed God of the Christians, is actually an instance of idol-worship and a form of blasphemy. No such fabulous creature as the 'Son of God' exists now, or was ever required to exist.

Reply #21 Top
That's only a part of the point I was making however (a point made for the benefit of self-satified ignoramuses such as KFC) - which is that 'Jesus Christ', supposed God of the Christians, is actually an instance of idol-worship and a form of blasphemy. No such fabulous creature as the 'Son of God' exists now, or was ever required to exist.


Sure. I figured it was worth saying anyway.

I'd like to think Jesus as the son of god existed though. It's always nice to have someone to blame.
Reply #22 Top
"Simon had you blacklisted when I woke up this morning, and since we share a computer that would have rendered you unable to comment on my threads as well. While Im sure this would have caused you little (if any) consternation, I pride myself on the shortness of said list (there is only one person on it at the moment) so I've asked Him to lift the ban, which He has. However, any further comment by you on this thread will be deleted and result in your return to the blacklist, so I'd appreciate your cooperation."


Let him, I don't care. My remark wasn't any different than the ones you guys leave here and there. As for this article, there's not much to say. He's just rejecting what he considers to be a mythology in favor of what other people consider to be a mythology.

The idea that anyone is going to back any of this up is pretty silly. If he wants to believe it, fine. It doesn't effect my belief, nor does my belief require me to bait other people about theirs. If he wants to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, fine, but until someone can prove the existance of an angel to me, there's not much to debate about.

Arguing Jesus was this and Jesus was that when 90% of anything we say is unproven and basically made up isn't accomplishing anything. I have no doubt that a lot of the Christian tradition about Jesus is mythology. Held to that standard, I'm not seeing anything in EoIC's opinion that is more reliable.

P.S. I don't make assertions about my skill at writing or my intelligence, either. He's more than welcome to muse about my lack of either, and I'll continue not caring about his skills one way or the other and just judge what he writes.
Reply #23 Top
I'm probably wrong, but I don't think it works that way. I can see it blocking you both when the site itself blacklists you, but I would imagine since you have separate accounts your blacklists would be different for each account, right? I don't think it would matter about your IP, since you could be accessing your accounts from any computer really.

Guess we'll see.
Reply #24 Top
To BakerStreet:

The idea that anyone is going to back any of this up is pretty silly. If he wants to believe it, fine. It doesn't effect my belief, nor does my belief require me to bait other people about theirs. If he wants to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, fine, but until someone can prove the existance of an angel to me, there's not much to debate about.


This is not that far removed from the smartass nonsense you responded with before - except that it now has a whining note at its edge.

Belief is a structure of thought. It can be defined, refined, updated, and debated. The fact that your faith, by your own confession, is lukewarm, half-hearted and incapable of inspiring you to debate with non-believers is by the by. As is the degree to which faith, yours or mine, is mythological or not - which is a straw man of the very poorest sort because, as you ought to know (and probably do) allfaiths are to some degree mythological. Or, rather, are exercises in mythopoesis on the part of believers both as individuals and communities.

None of which is to the point. I'm perpetually sickened by the crass arrogance of 'believers' such as yourself who present themselves as the acme of truth before the rest of the heathen - but run like rabbits when challenged to give an account of their faith and why they believe as they say they do.

Remember, believer (if such you actually are and not the feeble procrastinater you appear to be), what was said by the Angel to the church at Laodicea:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

But of course, such warnings are 'mythological', right?
Reply #25 Top
Every day, Lucas, but that has nothing to do with his treatment of you, which I must say has been kinder than I would have offered up. He is simply asking you to explain yourself, which you seem unwilling or unable to do.


I'm not saying it has to do with how he treated me. The way he was saying things sounded almost identical to the way you do. It is not that I am unwilling. I gave him my answers.

I usually do. She keeps you around for the same reason I'm willing to - it's fun to kick the helplessly immature and defenseless now and then.


*rolls eyes* Thanks, but no thanks.

aith in what, Lucas? The Supreme Artichoke? The Unavoidable Return of the Infallible Moonbat? And what, precisely, do you so despise about organized religion?


In something better. I mean, have you taken a look around the world? We're a bunch of selfish, ignorant, greed7, savage beasts. Seriously. What do I despise about oganized religion. The fact that it is easily corrupt. That, they insist on "interpreting god," that they have killed innocents in the name of god. You could say that I have a lack of "faith," in humans.

If religion is expedient (serves one's interest or purpose, is able to meet a sudden or urgent need) just what is it that you hold in such contempt?

And one more question: do you actually know anything at all about the contents of your own head? Because you appear not to.

(See? It's that kicking puppies thing again... I couldn't help it though... the Infallible Moonbat made me do it)


(See above)

I know some. I can't say that I know everything about myself. I expect, down the road, that as I encounter things, people, etc... I will learn more about myself. It's life.

I'm bowing out of this. I'd rather not go through another round of, "kick the puppy."


~L