God Cannot Be What He Is Believed To Be

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 Nietzsche’s inquiry into the nature of God as omnipotent and omniscient, concluded that He could not be goodness but rather cruel if “being himself in possession of the truth, he could calmly contemplate mankind , in a state of miserable torment, worrying its mind as to what was the truth?” Believers would immediately counter that humankind is not privy to truth except when God wishes to reveal it, and in the meantime faith is tentative knowledge.

However, it is not as simple as either faith or absolute knowledge that drives philosophers and men of letters into this maze of discomfort. After all, we are not really concerned with the uncertainty of divine existence or truth as much as the worry of untold misery and suffering in the world as some sort of devilish joke. The film of the Passion exemplifies this inscrutable jest by depicting excruciating pain upon the very one who is supposed to be God’s son who himself was profoundly perplexed in his outcry “Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?” — for which no kindly resurrection can excuse the sadism. Dostoevsky posed: is the suffering of one lonely child worth the creation?

The argument that it is man’s inhumanity to man that is at fault and not God’s, but rather the godlessness — not to mention the worry of what is the truth — within the Romans and Jews that caused the unspeakable atrocity. Yet why would a God of omnipotence allow such evil to surface to begin with? A compassionate God surely would have created a decent existence for all and not reduce it to some cruel test for his creatures. If there can be logic in faith, the only conclusion would be to accept the probability that if God does exist he is within the universe an integral Demiurge that is struggling as much as his creatures in attempting to make existence worthwhile. In this light, it is far less blasphemous than to believe in an all knowing and all good divinity that has the superpower to rectify the horror of his creation but mysteriously refuses to do so.

Copyright © 2004 Richard R. Kennedy All rights reserved. Revised: April 1, 2004.

philosophy
7,561 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Believers would immediately counter that humankind is not privy to truth except when God wishes to reveal it, and in the meantime faith is tentative knowledge.


Well I'm a believer, and that's not how I would counter... We are privy to the truth, and God wishes us to understand a whole lot more than what we do. There is nothing tentative about Faith.

Hebrews 11 v. 1 : Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Nothing tentative there...
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
"being himself in possession of the truth" -- That statement begins the fault in your first argument. You misunderstand; He is not "in possession of the truth," He IS the Truth. He, being "in possession of the Truth" sent "The Truth" to earth indeed. (John 14:6).

"who himself was profoundly perplexed in his outcry 'Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?' — for which no kindly resurrection can excuse the sadism. Dostoevsky posed: is the suffering of one lonely child worth the creation?" -- Jesus came to earth as both man and God -- He literally is God in the flesh. The question he asked is not a perplexed one. It is one that all of us have to ask when we realize sin. Jesus was our sacrifice, our atonement for sin. He, therefore, took on (became) our sins. This man felt the weight of sin for the first time. Without the weight of this sin, Jesus could not have been condemned to die -- This is why he died, he died for us to atone for our sins. When a person feels conviction, we realize we've been forsaken by God and need salvation, need forgiveness. Can you understand the excrutiating nature of that question? Sin means separation from God. We're talking spiritual pain, not physical pain here. It's realization -- it's sin manifesting and Him bearing it for us. Dostoevsky was a Christian, mind you. And realize God's purpose is glory -- God is love. Your question should then be, "Is creation worth the glory of God, is Creation worth multitudes of created beings entering into eternal love relationships with their creator." This same question is answered when you answer, "is it worth it to love someone when I know I risk being hurt?" The answer is always yes. God mourns for those who don't repent. It's not His will that any should die or go to hell. (2 Peter 3:9). But Just like any father, He's both merciful and just. He's going to show mercy but he's going to do what's right and after a certain point He's going to say enough. God gives the lonely children light. Jesus said, "allow the little children to come unto me, for such is the kindom of heaven."

"not to mention the worry of what is the truth" -- But He told us what the truth is... He is the Truth! despite what circumstances are, He is the Truth!

"A compassionate God surely would have created a decent existence" You said "decent." I think you said "decent" but are arguing for "perfection." We have a decent existence. People in developing nations suffer far less depression than those in developed nations. It balances out. Define Decent if I have it wrong. I think over all we've got plenty of reasons to have joy. Especially those who have joy in the Lord and store up treasure in heaven... "for all and not reduce it to some cruel test for his creatures." When things go wrong, we question God, we turn toward him. We cannot question Him without turning toward him. He says, "draw near to me and I'll draw near to you." God made you. He's closer to you than you can imagine. Within a whisper. Just call and He'll answer. Always. How is that cruel? Sounds merciful, loving, and nurturing to me.

"that is struggling as much as his creatures in attempting to make existence worthwhile." Again, "Worthwhile" is the pivotal point. Love is always worth it. We know it. We get that trait from Him. "attempt" is the wrong word.Remember, we're not puppets. Then there really would be no point or "Worth."

"it is far less blasphemous than to believe in an all knowing and all good divinity that has the superpower to rectify the horror of his creation but mysteriously refuses to do so." He is all-knowing, He is omnibenevolent, and he used his power to come to earth, resist the temptation to call 22,000 angels to rescue Him from the cross (a single angel killed 187,000 men in the old testament alone), and that same power allowed him to take on sin so we don't have to bear it. We can accept Him as our sacrifice. But because He's just, He won't force a gift on someone and won't barge down a closed door. He knocks instead. (Revelation 3:20). When we're stirred to seek truth, He'll draw near us and we'll write an article over our search for truth. Then he'll send someone your way bearing the good news. That's His love. Recognize it. John 1:12. Believing is different than receiving. We pray to receive.

Yes, Faith is Logical... and based on Evidence, too.


d
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
"He who belongs to me hears my voice; therefore you do not hear because you do not belong to me." -- John 9:47

When you belong to Him and receive Him, you understand... you hear Him. "My Sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow me." John 10:27.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wish i found this post earlier, i just got into a fight about this, and how/why bad things happened to people. My argument was when people sin., they allow Satan into their life to ruin it, and when they ask God to help or fix things he will.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bad things happen because people have free will.  How hard is that?
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh, and another thing i just thought of, is things soemtimes come to test people's faith. My youth-paster had a baby that has a blood infection aswell as Phnemonia, and he prayed, in a week, without any medical treatment, the baby survived, and shes find right now.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
"A compassionate God surely would have created a decent existence for all and not reduce it to some cruel test for his creatures."

...makes sense, no?

Although... in that there book, the Bible it says alot about this... just a few little excerpts listed below:

Genisis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

... ok, now that tells me, God put man on earth in a pretty nice place, it was beautiful...

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

... he even had animals to play with, and a job (you may say, 'but jobs suck' well, not really, sitting around doing nothing sucks and if you read on, you will find out what sucks about jobs to begin with)...

Genisis 2:20b ...but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

... God even got Adam a girlfriend, not bad, eh? i wouldn't complain

You could even call it "decent" until...

Genisis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

... we all know what happened, he ate it, she ate it... they found their birthday suits... etc.

Genisis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

...Yowza, yeah that's what i said, its quite a zinger when you think about it... Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil... man is more like God? well, yeah, Man has free will; and knows how to use it, ya might say.
now, im not a huge fan of using the Matrix for theology, (for many reasons not to be explored right now..) but, alas, here 'tis Morpheus is all about being free, and he says true freedom is being able to choose the Matrix or the real world. its all about choice, Adam chose to know Good and Evil, that's the real world, Eden was not. there, everything was 'good'... (picture running thru fields of flowers, not a care in the world, (except for what you should name that large creature with the horn on his nose, knowing that the chicken came first.. etc. etc.) but was he free? he didn't know of evil, this whole other side to life, even death, it was a word to him, but not an actual experience, nothing he had seen before... God gave Adam the chance to know all of this, to make his choice... he chose what everyone would choose, 'the road less taken' as Robert Frost puts it.

we do have a 'decent' existence, because we have free will, we dont have to believe in God, its hard to think about how amazing that is, but try and picture yourself being compelled to salute everytime you see a duck, no-matter what. there isn't even a choice, its not salute the duck or die (thats free will.) its salute the duck, because there is no other choice, you dont even question it, the thought of 'wonder what will happen if i dont salute this duck this time'... if you could think that - that would be free will.

the Bible tells us angels have no free will. like the 'little automoton droids' hippies don't like, they do because God wills them to, not out of respect, not following orders, not out of fear of death or dismemberment. only because God deems it so. If God wanted us to be little robots, he could have. Sure, we would live in paradise and salute the duck everytime it comes around, and we wouldn't know of anything better... totally ignorant of being able to make decisions. Rise in the morning, Bed in the evening. Nothing different, nothing origional, you would never be able to post what you posted, because you would have never thought it. Granted, there would be peace, nobody would hate, no conflict, no riots, bad things would never happen to good people or otherwise, but there wouldn't be any excitement, no good books, no video games, not even pong. no love, nothing. thats certainly not the God i want to serve (aww, shucks, i would have no choice in the matter).

God didn't just give us a 'decent' existence, he gave us the most amazing existence ever, it is I who has corrupted it. it is You who has corrupted it.



... the job thing... G 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Very interesting article. Pain and suffering is the hardest thing in our world to understand, isn't it? A minister came to see my mother after my oldest brother was killed. He told her that it might have been her relationship with God that caused him to take my brother. The universe is an amazing thing. So much more to it than we are aware of. The monkeys that washed their sweet potatoes and other monkeys across the world washing theirs. Instincts. Gut feelings. Dreams. The fact that I carried a little human inside of me! You make me ramble, stevendedalus. I have so much more to say, but I think I'll write you an email!
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
WiseFawn... Those are some great thoughts of wonder...

I don't know why God does what He does. I don't like conjecturing about why He does things in specific circumstances, like with your brother.

I'm reading the Chronicles of Narnia to my daughter. In it, a lion chases Shasta. The same lion frightens him while he's in the desert. The lion then resurfaces, only to chase them and even scratches Aravis's back. He later finds the same lion while riding through the dark. The lion speaks. Shasta is too frightened to move. The lion reveals to him this: If he'd not chased him in the first place, he'd not have met Aravis. It's the chase that brought them together. If he'd not roared near him in the desert, he'd not have been able to frighten the hyenas away. They would have tore Shasta to bits. If he'd not chased them again, the horses wouldn't have found the speed they needed to arrive before a mass army came to kill them. "But why did you tear Aravis's back?" The lion says "I can only tell you your story, not someone else's. That's for me to tell her." Aslan, the lion, is the Son of the Great Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea, The Savior of the World...
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Suffering and God are very hard to understand. But I think that the very fact that you question God's goodness because of suffering is not only proof that there is a God, but that he is good. Your morality in judging God is created in you by God. Now as to why a good God would allow such suffering to be experienced by innocent children is an unanswerable question. But the alternative of no God is even more terrible. Then we would be completely alone in the universe with no one to call on.

When I sit in a room of people in recovery from drugs and feel the love that each one has for each other, I know that there is a God. Who else could have created that miracle?

I also see you, Richard and your desire for justice as another proof of the existance of God.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I pose the question to each of you personally: If you were God and in contemplating Creation but knowing there would be untold suffering, would you go ahead and do it anyway? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I know all of you are offering comforting thoughts and beliefs, and I respect and appreciate them. And I myself would be the first to say better to have lived than not at all. Still, I am outraged by the complacency that believers have in not taking God to task for doing such a poor job as an artisa. Now, if you paid attention to my conclusion: it is far better not to blame God if he is not omnipotent but doing the best he can.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you were God and in contemplating Creation but knowing there would be untold suffering, would you go ahead and do it anyway?

If I were God--quite frankly stevendedalus, it is honestly beyond the capacity of my imagination to entertain such a senerio. I am so aware of my own humanity and the frailty and imperfections that accompany my human condition that to imagine being Divinity seems inappropriate at best.

However, having been created in his image, I know I posess a certain likeness of him. The ability to relate, to feel, to know and to believe but perhaps the greatest reflection of his likeness is the ability to choose. I am not a creature driven by instinct and this is a very important factor in what separates me from other creatures. This I see as the answer to the ultimate question of why--because God gives us the ability to choose and does not strip us of our dignity by removing that priviledge--no matter how badly we perform.

joa
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Richard, I agree with you. God limited himself, because he didn't create a world that was static, but a world that was free. As to why He did it, it is beyond my comprehension, but since he is love, then I trust the reason. I also know that our belief system is flawed--no matter what creed we follow.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
ok, here is a cheezy explination that i recieved from one of those absolutely obnoxious, stupid, chain mailings. its not that deep, but

think about it for a bit.

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and

his beard cut as always.
He began to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him.
They talked about so many things and various subjects.

Suddenly, they touched on the subject of God. The barber said:
"Look man, I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize
that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God exists, would there be
so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God exists,
there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God
who permits all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but he didn't respond because he
did not want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the
customer left the shop. Just after he left the barber shop, he saw a
man in the street with long hair and a beard. It was very long, and a long
time since he had his hair cut and he looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say they! don't exist?" asked the surprised barber. " I am
here and I am a barber. Why I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did
there would be no people with long hair and beard

like that man who is outside."

"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me."

"Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God does exist.
What happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's
why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."


i know... its cheezy - but it does illustrate a point, God is sitting there waiting to help, we just have to ask him. its that easy.
make the choice, ignore his presence or ask him for help... thats what he's there for.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
The issue is as old as 'free will' Vs. Predestination' and I find them dualistic not polaric. I illustrate:

A movie with David Carradine, in which he is a 'shou lin' type guide for a man in search of the book of the answer to life's ultimate question. He sees a young pretty-boy who is clearly spoiled by his looks. As the child walks by, he breaks his nose. This was not done to harm, but help the child overcome his vanity and pursue his true calling in life.

I have told of the trip on the bus in which I observed a clear genius child of a welfare mother. As I left the bus I told her "Your child has highly intelligent eyes. The eyes of a genius." As I left her ther to ponder what another saw in her hyperactive child, I thought, "I may now step off this bus and be hit by a car and die. What if my whole life was to gain the insight to see this in the child and relate it, so he can grow to cure cancer?"

As perplexing as these things are for us to ponder, consider a God who controls each movement of each individual life that ever existed. Once in meditation, I sought for ultimate wisdom and received a vision of a cone extending from the top of my skull out into infinite space. A voice said to me, "Now order and maintain the space in this area for one second." I realized the masive and infinite wisdom of a God, and have not been so vain as to try to contain a portion of it in this small skull since.

My rest is in the knowledge, "For we know that all things work together for good for those who love god and are called according to his purpose." Nahum 1:7. Be at peace for all must return to its state of true perfection in time. It may be a year for one and a million for another, but it is done.

The satanists are foolish in that they are deluded to think the created 'Satan' will defeat his creator. God would not have made him if he knew he'd lose a battle to him in time. They don't get the fact that good and evil are not polaric, but dualistic. Evil may need good to exist and have form, meaning for itself, but god MADE it from good. Good does not need evil to exist, and neither does God. He wrote the book of our lives, all of them, and we are blessed of all creatures with 'free will' to enjoy this 'existence' so much we can call it 'life'.

As to life, Jesus said to conquer death you only have to die. The ultimate test of faith. Don't go there but consider it. What if death isn't the illusion, but life? It gets deep, but hope I helped contribute a bit.

Great post, as usual, Mr. Dedalus. You give us pause to think on the more important aspects of our 'existence'.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sherye, I'm not questioning the existence of God, I just htink he has limited powers and is trying hard to make us better. Nevertheless, I am outraged by the horror so many little girls and women--among other things--who are kidnaped, raped and murdered. No amount of prayer and rationalization is going to comfort the mother of a Samantha. And just the other day hauling charred bodies to be hanged on a bridge like smoked ham, free will, nothwithstanding, no omnipotent God would allow such atrocities. 
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
So to answer your question: Isn't it better to view God as just doing the best he can?

The parent's role is one that mirror's God's role to us, right? Follow me... I know a reason I have to make sure my daughter obeys when I tell her to do something is for more than just safety reasons; its for security reasons. That is to say, if she knows and understands I'm in control of her and her life, I'm then in control of her world. If she views me as strong and commanding, she experiences less fear for the unknown ... like the dark or strangers or whathaveyou. She's SECURE in the fact that I can take care of her, protect her, and control frightening experiences. She's therefore freer to step out in faith and take healthy risks within the structure of my protection and will for her because she seeks my blessings and enjoys my security.

If my daughter instead viewed me as "doing the best I can" that necessarily means she takes pity, sympathy, on me and has compassion for me. She puts herself in my shoes and worries about me. She may either feel like she has to protect me or that she has to take care of herself alone. She obviously cannot fully trust me without viewing it through a sympathetic lens, right? She "takes me with a grain of salt." She sees me as weak and wishy washy. She's not secure in my protection or my will for her. She doesn't trust me to help her make good decisions.

Do I want her viewing me as a strong woman, a leader, an assertive person with my beliefs & morals, and someone who stands up for justice, gives mercy, loves with abandon, and is fiercely loyal, wise, and trustworthy? YES. I don't want to be the opposite. I want her to say one day, "My mother was amazing. She always did the right thing or apologized when wrong. She had compassion on people without compromising morals. She expected excellence from me and always helped me. She taught me right from wrong and loved me without fail."

God is a strong God. He's the one who does not fail. He keeps his promises. He keeps the universe moving so perfectly we can set our clocks by it. He has set the fractal in nature -- the mathematical formula so inherent in our lives Jackson Pollack couldn't help but paint it in his masterful works of splattering paint. (He became increasingly accurate with each painting.) The golden ratio is the spiral you see in ram's horns, sea shells (nautillus, conch, et cetera), pine cones, pineapples, and even the grass in africa's growing patter to name a few places. That's the tangible outcome of God's fractal.

No, this isn't the portrait of a God doing the best he can. This is the portrait of a God whose will is unsearchable, whose will we'll not understand until the day we're united with him fully, without the world and sin between us. This is the God who is bigger than I can imagine. If I could imagine him accurately, He'd not be greater than me. Isaiah tells us God asks the question, "Can you imagine me without diminishing me?"

"For a mere moment I have forsaken you, but with great mercies I will gather you. With a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; But with everylasting kindness I will have mercy on you," says the Lord, your redeemer. Isaiah 54:7-8
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's crazy but as I see it, religion is easily the most controversial subject on the planet. Humans struggling to define what is right and wrong, how we came to be, and where we will end up. Is it just our biological ability to anticipate death? Or is it our salvation? Yet with it's tension it has caused wars, deaths, and persecutions. Why is such a benign way of life as religion fueled by anger and even hatred at times. I am a believer of God and the bible but sometimes man's interpretations of such things scares me. I will continue to believe in him and pray that humanity does improve.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Richard,
The theology that makes sense to me is that God suffers with humanity when bad things happen. I know that at times God does intervene and other times, he doesn't. I don't know why, but I do know that God is love. A heard a story that after the holocaust a Jew who hadn't been through it lost his faith in God, whereas another who did go through it continued to believe. I think that when we think of suffering and God, we will always get more questions than answers. What feeds my faith in sitting in the rooms of N.A. and seeing broken people made whole.
Sherye
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Amen, and God Bless Everyone!