Faith...Religion

Well it depends. What is your faith in? It has to be in someting right? When you say your dogma is not set in stone, are you saying you've built it on sand? That's no better.

I used to be as you until I realized that we Christians need each other for encouragement, accountability and edification. There is no such thing as a Lone Ranger Christian.

Why don't you believe in organized religion? Did something turn you away from this?

There is no such thing as an infallible church. Church is people, not a building. Church is a group of believers not to be confused with the structure they meet in.

There is no such thing as an infallible church. Church is people, not a building. Church is a group of believers not to be confused with the structure they meet in.

This is a good point. I have faith, and I am religious, if by either or both of these answers you take it to mean that I patronize a church.
One thing I learned long ago - the gospel is perfect, but those in the church are not. End of story.

Hope you can continue to find some peace on your path.

There is no such thing as an infallible church. Church is people, not a building. Church is a group of believers not to be confused with the structure they meet in.

I'm referencing the catholic church's, and other religion's and their 'we know the best' beliefs. Etc...

One thing I learned long ago - the gospel is perfect, but those in the church are not. End of story

Why don't you believe in organized religion? Did something turn you away from this?

Nothing turned me away. I've just grown to be like that.

Well it depends. What is your faith in? It has to be in someting right? When you say your dogma is not set in stone, are you saying you've built it on sand? That's no better

I believe/have faith in a being. That created everything we know it to be. (be it a "god", or "allah"...The title means nothing to me, just what i represents: peace. love, etc...) What I mean by it not being set in stone means that, A) I'm not going to be rigid, intolerant, etc... I am open to the fact that, hey, i could be wrong about things...i could...whatever...I'm open to changes.

~Lucas

Hello All,

Great questions. Fine distinctions. We ultimately must choose or not, I suppose. One could have a faith in a Creator God, a God that just is, neither creator nor destroyer, or faith in self, or a practice or some combination of these. A religion is a cluster of beliefs or practices that gets us closer to something meaningful in our lives. In the west we typically understand this to include a deity. In the east, it may or may not include a deity, but rather focuses on an understanding of reality or a set of practices to assist us the get a better understanding of reality.

In my case, I am a monk. I have faith in my practice, the practice of just sitting. In this practice, we sit quietly facing a wall, our attention initially on our breath, but eventually on nothing at all. During this practice, self drops away. Only the universe is present. Eventually we see that the universe and us are one entity. Some might call this God, some not. It doesn't matter. Some may call this "spiritual." I don't know. I only know that this practice enables me to perceive limitless connection and as a result prohibits me from causing harm.

I'd say this is pretty special. There was a time when I was a killer. Literally. And a very angry young man. Broken, spit on by a society that didn't want to see itself in me. Soldiers have that effect, you know, after we use them all we want is for them to go away. God, in the traditional sense didn't speak to me. I could not deal with those who would send soldiers off to war and yet, at the same time, send cards in December asking for peace. So, I found my own way.

In the end, Zen has enabled me to relax some, see the good in others, even those who at one time I would have hated. Or maybe it was just the years between the war and now, I don't know. What I know is that your practice is what is so very important, behavior changes attitude.

Be well.

I am open to the fact that, hey, i could be wrong about things...i could...whatever...I'm open to changes.

Best beware of cults, Woolfie! You sound like the perfect recruit...

Best beware of cults, Woolfie! You sound like the perfect recruit

1) No more "woolfie"...k?

2) Hell no. I'm not going to join any cult...

1) No more "woolfie"...k?

My apologies, kind sir. It's just easier to type than ElindelWolf, and I had a good friend years ago that went by the name Woof. Woolfie seemed a natural extension, and I was attempting to be casual, not offensive.

Sorry!

My apologies, kind sir. It's just easier to type than ElindelWolf, and I had a good friend years ago that went by the name Woof. Woolfie seemed a natural extension, and I was attempting to be casual, not offensive.

I'm not mad...its sorta a thing from what my sis's nickname is for me. Try EW *shrugs* its shorter...

Reply By: Sodaiho

u2

~EW

One thing I learned long ago - the gospel is perfect, but those in the church are not. End of story.

so true. Christ said that he came for the sick not the well. The church is full of spiritually sick people of all degrees. If you find a good church you can heal and get better. The medicine? The Good News. Works every time....lol.

Hope you can continue to find some peace on your path.

Oh I have, He's called the Prince Of Peace. Can't get better than that!!! He met me on the path and showed me the way.

I am open to the fact that, hey, i could be wrong about things...i could...whatever...I'm open to changes

I agree with Dick. You are the perfect candidate for a cult. They would love balm you to death before you even knew what was happening. Don't be so open, your brains fall out...k?

the practice of just sitting. In this practice, we sit quietly facing a wall, our attention initially on our breath, but eventually on nothing at all. During this practice, self drops away. Only the universe is present. Eventually we see that the universe and us are one entity.

*shakes head* there is so much work to do out there Sodaiho. Believe me if you are busy doing the work of Jesus, being his arms and legs.....self drops away in no time and to boot? Someone else's life is enriched. Just think what the world would be like if we all put the other person ahead of ourselves. I can just imagine....

"you go first"...
"no you go first",
"no I insist, you go first."

*shrugs* guess that would be a perfect world and we can't have that now can we? I look forward to the day.....

Don't be so open, your brains fall out...k?

I appreciate your worry, however...I'm fine...

~Lucas

*shakes head* there is so much work to do out there Sodaiho. Believe me if you are busy doing the work of Jesus, being his arms and legs.....self drops away in no time and to boot? Someone else's life is enriched. Just think what the world would be like if we all put the other person ahead of ourselves. I can just imagine.... "you go first"... "no you go first", "no I insist, you go first." *shrugs* guess that would be a perfect world and we can't have that now can we? I look forward to the day.....

Hello KFC, You are so right about this. A lot of work! Prayer, however, is first, as it helps us adjust ourselves so we can approach the work with an open and healing hand. It would seem our two ways of being are not as far apart as you might initially believe. I think it is a saying within your faith that it is not I in the doing, but Him. Zen Buddhist hold a similar position, self falls away so that help is pure and egoless. My schedule allows me only one day a week at the soup kitchen and one day at the weekly peace vigil, but these days are precious.

Be well.

the practice of just sitting.

*shakes head* there is so much work to do out there Sodaiho

There is indeed, as you say, so much work to do out there. And your point about the self dropping away when you are helping others is a good one too, but the shaking head suggests that there is something you haven't quite grasped. You I suppose are coming from the point of view of JOY (Jesus first, Others second, Yourself last). I can appreciate that. Sodaiho is coming from a point of view that truly seeing that you and I and everybody else are intimately connected in what has been described as 'interbeing' is just as much a help to acting compassionately in this world to try to benefit all beings. In his tradition the Boddhisattva is someone who indeed delays embracing the 'rewards' of Nirvana in order to continue to help all sentient beings. That's his practice; you have yours.

After all, you are happy enough to go to church and praise God because you think that it is important - and re-charges your spiritual batteries for more work in the world - even though from one point of view it is 'wasted time' that could also be used in good works. It's a similar thing with just sitting - except that 'just sitting', a reasonable translation of 'shikantaza', is actually really quite hard!

In the older christian traditions, men and women would go out into the desert to get closer to God. Later they got together in communities to lead 'useless' lives of prayer and devotion to God. Protestant Christianity (along with, to some extent, Islam and Judaism) became quite disdainful of this 'useless' activity, cut off from the immediate problems of this world, but I think a mature spiritual worldview should embrace the many different callings and paths by which we all seek to get closer to the ineffable truth that is beyond our human words and concepts.

Ok guys you got me here. I too believe that we need to spend time in prayer and alone time with God to be any earthly good. There's a saying that says you can be so heavenly minded you're no earthly good or you can be so earthly minded you're no heavenly good.

When I look at the life of Christ as my example, I see he made use of his time very wisely. He had the time management thing down pat!! He was a busy man doing many things but he took time away from all to be alone with His father in heaven from which he drew his strength as should we. He then went back into the world to bring glory to God, not himself.

I think we can be unbalanced either way by spending our days alone or by being so busy we don't take time to recharge and think things thru. I've seen and been on both sides here and now realize it's a matter of balance.

In the older christian traditions, men and women would go out into the desert to get closer to God. Later they got together in communities to lead 'useless' lives of prayer and devotion to God.

I would be one that would not agree with this. James said it best. "Faith without works is dead."

In the older christian traditions, men and women would go out into the desert to get closer to God. Later they got together in communities to lead 'useless' lives of prayer and devotion to God. I would be one that would not agree with this. James said it best. "Faith without works is dead."

So you think that the schools and hospitals that the monastics built helped no-one, or the spiritual counselling that they offered to those who came to them were not 'works'? You have a wonderful spiritual fire within you, but for me the fundamentalist vision also has a kind of 'narrowness' to it. There are many different ways in which people feel called to serve their God and you need to be careful in being so 'sure' that someone else's way is wrong. After all, even Jesus spent his time in the desert and yet I can't imagine you telling him that he was wasting his time because "Faith without works is dead".

Bottom line: only God knows what are 'works' and what aren't.

So you think that the schools and hospitals that the monastics built helped no-one, or the spiritual counselling that they offered to those who came to them were not 'works'?

No, I didn't say that. I'm only going by your previous comment on going out in the desert to get closer to God. What you wrote above sounds like "works" to me.

But I do have to say I do NOT believe that works save us. Works are only an external evidence of what's already going on inside.

You have a wonderful spiritual fire within you, but for me the fundamentalist vision also has a kind of 'narrowness' to it. There are many different ways in which people feel called to serve their God and you need to be careful in being so 'sure' that someone else's way is wrong. After all, even Jesus spent his time in the desert and yet I can't imagine you telling him that he was wasting his time because "Faith without works is dead".

ya know Chak sometimes I think you are just being cranky.

Jesus spent 40 days in the desert (once) to begin his ministry and then HE went to work. Like I said, He's a great example to follow. Besides he's the author of "Faith without works is dead." It's like a two coupon ticket. They go together.

It's not about us and our ways Chak but all about HIM and His ways. Remember I've been in alot of groups so I've been in many different situations serving what I thought was God only to find out it wasn't God.

Oh and also....Jesus said it was narrow. And when you look at the Greek it gives the impression it's like a crack between two rocks....you have to squeeze through, meaning you can't take anything with you.

Bottom line: only God knows what are 'works' and what aren't.

and he's gonna test them by fire. Only God knows why we do what we do; our motivation behind those works.

"Now if any man build upon this foundation (Chist) gold, silver precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort is is. If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Paul.

ya know Chak sometimes I think you are just being cranky.

Not so. You are quite sure of the things you believe, and I believe with equal sincerity that the fundamentalist strain of christianity that you follow is a fairly narrow (but vibrant!) spiritual path, that ignores much of the collected experience and wisdom of 2,000 years of your own religion, as well as that to be found in others. We are never going to agree, but we continue to debate, you with the hope that God may one day move my heart to see that you are right after all, and me with the hope that you will one day see the wider picture. There is mutual stubbornness, (not crankiness), here that provides the fuel for our debate. Personally I get a lot from it...

Hey Chak,

well good I'm relieved you're not being a crank!! I'm pleased that you're sincere, and as you know I do believe you can be sincere and sincerely wrong at the same time....I say that wih love....of course!!!! Don't say never tho, because you just may have a surprise encounter with you know who. I've seen it happen with more stubborn ones than you.

Let me tell you a story that involves my son's future wife's parents. Her Dad I'll call B was an ex-cop just turned 50 two years ago. He was currently a private eye and hated us "Jesus freaks." He was very uncomforable around us. It was plain as day. We all knew it. He stayed out of church and out of our lives as much as possible. When his ex partner on the force became a Christian, he wanted nothing of it. We started picking his daughter up for church....he wanted nothing of it. We showed up in his life in 2000. Nov 2004 he finally moved away from us with his wife to another state far away from us "freaks." He moved to a little town called Goshen on a road named "Baptist Hill" Road three doors down from a little country church that rang its bells. I laughed my head off and told Amanda (his daughter) that God had big plans for her parents. They didn't move three doors down from a church for nothing and in the land of Goshen for no reason.

July 2005 B was sitting in his especially equipped van spying on a house at 6 am when he heard a click; a gun to his head. He thought he was a dead man. He knew in that instant he wasn't right before God. He was a total wreck. His car was highjacked. His life shattered. He went home and said to his wife "I need to go to church." That Sunday they walked three doors down to that little Baptist church. The preacher was preaching on Romans. He said (and I am not lying I swear) "You just faced death in the face and you are now walking out of darknes." B and his wife knew then that God was calling them. They both gave their lives to Christ that day. And boy are they new creatures today. I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS IS THE SAME MAN. He is now preaching Jesus in the prison system. He gave up his job as the private eye. When I told his ex partner this story he said he would never believe it. He couldn't. Until B called Rick and told him himself that he and his wife were baptized that day. Now they look back on their lives and can see things they never saw before. Like why their house sold in one day, their moving to Baptist Hill Rd in Goshen, etc.

There's alot more to this story but for brevity sake....but one more thing...the preacher who not only moved in next door to B and his wife but now they are very best friends. He showed B his sermon notes that day. What he said from the pulpit that so moved them was never written down in his notes. I believe this because I've seen this as well involving my preacher and a lady in my church who had a similar experience. He too said it was not written down in his notes but just came out of his mouth.

So Chak....you just never know. I have a big God and I do see the wider picture. I "See" much more than you understand.

Blessings!!

KFC