Being One

"Whether we each believe in God is irrelevant. Call God the universe, it doesn't really matter. What matters is your willingness to open yourself to its vastness."

may I be blunt?

This comes from the pit of hell. Your writing is all about "me."

Satan from the beginning wishes nothing but for us to think ourselves as God. His desire is to be God. He has the "I will" mentality that you speak of. "I will ascend to the most high." " I will exhalt my throne above the stars of God." "I will be as God."

Remember "I" is the center of prIde which is the downfall of man.

You are not going "be well" if you continue to believe this.

Really Be Well

may I be blunt? This comes from the pit of hell. Your writing is all about "me."

Thank you for your response KFC, and for your bluntness. My writing is about dropping away self, me, if you will, so that conception does not act as a filter between the universe and ourselves. Hell is both historically in Judaism, as well as in Buddhism, a state of mind, not a literal place. Free your mind, hell and heaven cease to exist.

Satan from the beginning wishes nothing but for us to think ourselves as God. His desire is to be God. He has the "I will" mentality that you speak of. "I will ascend to the most high." " I will exhalt my throne above the stars of God." "I will be as God."

Satan, or in the Hebrew, the Adversary, again is a concept not a literal being. Neither Judaism nor Buddhism hold a belief in a literal "Satan" as Christian do. An adversary is nothing more or less than a desire that takes us away from being present. Zen practice seeks to teach us a way of living without allowing desire or craving a foothold in our lives.

If God is omnipresent, KFC, where is He not? If He is omnipotent, where is He not all powerful? Coming face to face with ourselves on a cushion or in prayer is the same as walking through the valley ofthe shadow of death. Our courage is to continue the walk, regardless of our fear. One way of understanding the often cited Christian scripture about Jesus being the Way is to see living as Jesus did as the Way, not his literalness.

Remember "I" is the center of prIde which is the downfall of man.

Absolutely! We are in complete agreement. Zen practice is about the obliteration of the self by realizing the self and other are essentially fictions created by our minds to deal with the processes of life. I believe pride is a great sin, a clear obsticle to our understanding and growth. I'm sure there is a good reason it was listed as one of the seven deadly sins. Too bad we don't speak out so much against this sin in America today.

You are not going "be well" if you continue to believe this.

Ahh, here's the rub, KFC, disease is a result of dualism, "dis-ease" as a separation of self from other, self from self. To be well, is to be whole, and wholeness is wholeness with the universe, again, where in the universe is God not?

Be well.

You are not going "be well" if you continue to believe this.

Oh here we go with the old fire and brimstone thing again. "Disagree with me and you'll go to hell!" KFC, you said somewhere you had studied a lot of religions. What made you finally settle for such an obvious 'spiritual' manifestation of purely human sadism and anger as fundamentalism?

IF you believe in God, and IF you believe in Hell, then it occurs to me that (according to any kind of orthodox christian belief), its still up to God to finally decide who goes there. And yet I've read you quite specifially claim to KNOW that certain people are in Hell (your uncle included apparently) and to be able to confidently predict hell for others (including poor Sodaiho here).

Christian fundies remind me so much of the prodigal son's older brother. I can imagine you all in the 'Great Beyond' seething with rage when a merciful God decides that all those people you so confidently consigned to Hell are actually admitted to the Pearly Gates after all:
"But God", you moan, "they didn't accept Jesus as their personal savior!"
"Are you arguing with me?" booms the great Celestial Voice.
"No, but..."
"No but nothing! This fag here gaves his last dime to a homeless man, and you see that unbelieving whore over there? She visited the sick every day when she wasn't flat on her back trying to feed her family""
"But Lord, you said we are saved by faith in Jesus, not by works"
"Quoting my own words back at me, are we? Look you really don't get it! I'm in the love and mercy business. Sheesh, you sound like you want these people to go to hell. Would that make you feel special? If I sent everyone who ever failed in love into the firey pit, your number would soon be up."
"But Lord, I heard a pastor say once that hell was the absence of God, and because of free will God could never force us to love and serve him forever. And those who rejected salvation, well... you said it yourself in the Bible!"
"I've changed my mind. Suck it up!"
"But Lord, you can't do that!"
"But Lord nothing! You really don't get it do you? If you had really listened to my boy, you would have found out what's it been about since the beginning. Love. And if you loved everybody, if you really understood that we're all part of each other, then you would have hoped against hope for everyone to be saved, regardless of what you read, or what 'your pastor told you'". But there was so little love in your religion - just an awful lot of pride. It's lucky for you that I really am so merciful."

I've also looked at a lot of religions and I can tell you that this fire and brimstone stuff is just about the most infantile and immature spirituality I've come across. Hopefully your searching isn't over yet...

Hey Chak,

Simmer down will ya? Yes I agree only God knows who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. It's not over until it's over. But a high handed fist to God is usually a sure sign they are not on the narrow road that leads to HIM.

I hope you're not inferring that I'm making the decision here for Sodaiho. I'm not. I do believe in Hell, yes, and if that makes me a fire and brimstone messenger, then I'm guilty. I do believe we should warn people when we see them going in contradiction to God's ways. I'm not God by any stretch, I'm just a messenger that's been told to "go and tell."

My uncle went to his grave not "knowing" Christ nor caring. While I cannot know for sure where he's at, I can say that we can pretty well know a tree by its fruit. I can't know for sure if a tree is an apple tree or a pear tree unless I see fruit, then I can make a determination. He had no struggle with his sin. He was fine in it. That's a clear indication in my book, but again.....only God knows for sure. I agree.

As far as the Prodigal Son goes? If you read the story carefully you'll see the story is not about the two sons but all about the father. His mercy and love was the crux of the whole story. I believe the Prodigal Son was "saved" before he even left the home. He fell away from His father and was accepted back with welcome arms.

So Chak you've got me mixed up with other "fundamentalists" I'm afraid.

I've also looked at a lot of religions and I can tell you that this fire and brimstone stuff is just about the most infantile and immature spirituality I've come across. Hopefully your searching isn't over yet...

why would this be? Did you not know that Christ spoke more of Hell than he did of Heaven?

Hell is both historically in Judaism, as well as in Buddhism, a state of mind, not a literal place. Free your mind, hell and heaven cease to exist.

you may be right about Buddhism, I'd have to check, but not Judaism. Aren't you a Jew? The OT Jewish scriptures speak of hell as a literal place. Jesus also quoted the OT speaking of Hell as a place in Mark 9. You may want to check out Isa, 66:24.

Have you ever heard of the Valley of Hinnom? You may want to check into that.

The valley became so noxious that its name became a synonym for hell. The Hebrew phrase ge (“valley of”) hinnom eventually became the Greek Gehenna (Matt. 5:22; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). At one time, Jewish tradition even held that the entrance to hell began at that valley.

And as far as the Jews not believing in Satan, what do they do with Lucifer named in the OT and his visit to the throne of God during Job's time? He's known as the accuser and was doing just that of Job; accusing him before God.

you may be right about Buddhism, I'd have to check, but not Judaism. Aren't you a Jew? The OT Jewish scriptures speak of hell as a literal place. Jesus also quoted the OT speaking of Hell as a place in Mark 9. You may want to check out Isa, 66:24.

Hello KFC, Check away. You will find references to hells of all sorts, just as within Judaism, but it is always important to understand that the same words can (and most often do) have VASTLY different meanings across traditions. Moreover, concepts evolve, just as our hearts and minds do, changing over time to meet new and different conditions. Clearly, there was a time when Jews believed there was a hell and a heaven, some may still believe this, but as a whole, in my opinion, most Jews understand these concepts to be more mythological than literal. I am familiar with Gehenna and know that it is a place. A real place here on earth. The scripture you cite is not part of the Torah, but the prophets. Isaiah, what can I say, so much of these writings are lyrical, moving renditions, poetical, and polemic used to inspire and persuade. That's what prophets did. I wouldn't get too literal with them.

I am a Jew, fairly observant Jew, but a reform Jew.

And as far as the Jews not believing in Satan, what do they do with Lucifer named in the OT and his visit to the throne of God during Job's time? He's known as the accuser and was doing just that of Job; accusing him before God.

Ahh, Job, one of my favorite stories. The Adversary, or as you call him, Lucifer, gets into a bet with God and they play tricks on him. I sort of like the rendition by Archibald MacLeish, J.B. where he casts God and Satan as circus masters under the big top and play with Job in the center. Like all plays, God must have an adversary or there simply isn't a story. But I believe the point is missed entirely if one focuses on Satan and not on the real meaning of the story: the question of why bad things happen to good people and how should good people respond when bad things happen to them. We Jews don't think a whole lot about such things. We do think alot about how to make this world a better place, having faith that God will take care of the rest.

Most stories coming out of the desert have similar themes: Good v Bad. The Epic of Gilgamesh does the same sort of thing, pitting the prince against Enkidu, they wrestle and in the end, essentially become one, much like the old stories of Jacob wrestling with God and becoming Israel. In conflict is transition and an opportunity for transformation. The biblical authors knew this well: hence an adversary is always needed.

Within a Zen Buddhist context, this adversary is a part of us. One one level it is desire or craving, on another, the ego itself. It can be all of the various aspects of our human condition that take us into darkness and away from light. Yet, in Zen we see clearly that the light and the dark are nothing to be afraid of: both are necessary.

For an interesting read, you might want to take a look at a book called the Hero With a Thousand Faces, I think its a Joseph Campbell book, but my memory isn't what it once was. A great comparative myth text, very rich in exploration of the hero as a literary and, shall I say, biblical, figure.

Be well.

you may be right about Buddhism, I'd have to check, but not Judaism. Aren't you a Jew? The OT Jewish scriptures speak of hell as a literal place. Jesus also quoted the OT speaking of Hell as a place in Mark 9. You may want to check out Isa, 66:24.

Hello KFC, Check away. You will find references to hells of all sorts, just as within Judaism, but it is always important to understand that the same words can (and most often do) have VASTLY different meanings across traditions. Moreover, concepts evolve, just as our hearts and minds do, changing over time to meet new and different conditions. Clearly, there was a time when Jews believed there was a hell and a heaven, some may still believe this, but as a whole, in my opinion, most Jews understand these concepts to be more mythological than literal. I am familiar with Gehenna and know that it is a place. A real place here on earth. The scripture you cite is not part of the Torah, but the prophets. Isaiah, what can I say, so much of these writings are lyrical, moving renditions, poetical, and polemic used to inspire and persuade. That's what prophets did. I wouldn't get too literal with them.

I am a Jew, fairly observant Jew, but a reform Jew.

And as far as the Jews not believing in Satan, what do they do with Lucifer named in the OT and his visit to the throne of God during Job's time? He's known as the accuser and was doing just that of Job; accusing him before God.

Ahh, Job, one of my favorite stories. The Adversary, or as you call him, Lucifer, gets into a bet with God and they play tricks on him. I sort of like the rendition by Archibald MacLeish, J.B. where he casts God and Satan as circus masters under the big top and play with Job in the center. Like all plays, God must have an adversary or there simply isn't a story. But I believe the point is missed entirely if one focuses on Satan and not on the real meaning of the story: the question of why bad things happen to good people and how should good people respond when bad things happen to them. We Jews don't think a whole lot about such things. We do think alot about how to make this world a better place, having faith that God will take care of the rest.

Most stories coming out of the desert have similar themes: Good v Bad. The Epic of Gilgamesh does the same sort of thing, pitting the prince against Enkidu, they wrestle and in the end, essentially become one, much like the old stories of Jacob wrestling with God and becoming Israel. In conflict is transition and an opportunity for transformation. The biblical authors knew this well: hence an adversary is always needed.

Within a Zen Buddhist context, this adversary is a part of us. One one level it is desire or craving, on another, the ego itself. It can be all of the various aspects of our human condition that take us into darkness and away from light. Yet, in Zen we see clearly that the light and the dark are nothing to be afraid of: both are necessary.

For an interesting read, you might want to take a look at a book called the Hero With a Thousand Faces, I think its a Joseph Campbell book, but my memory isn't what it once was. A great comparative myth text, very rich in exploration of the hero as a literary and, shall I say, biblical, figure.

Be well.

The scripture you cite is not part of the Torah, but the prophets. Isaiah, what can I say, so much of these writings are lyrical, moving renditions, poetical, and polemic used to inspire and persuade. That's what prophets did. I wouldn't get too literal with them.

Well it's still part of the Jewish writings recognized by the Jews regardless if it's the Torah or not.

Why not get literal? What the prophets said came true. Many prophecies regarding the person of Christ have come true as well as prophecies concerning Judah and Israel. Why wouldn't I take it literally? Have you ever checked out scriptures like Isa 53 or Ps 22 from the Jewish writings? It's amazing what they said hundreds of years before the actual happenings occurred.

Besides if you don't take literal (like you admitted) then you can make up whatever you want to believe. This is very popular. That's the draw I know. I was there once.

BTW, what is the definition of a reformed Jew from you point of view?

HAPPY PASSOVER

KFC

Why not get literal? What the prophets said came true. Many prophecies regarding the person of Christ have come true as well as prophecies concerning Judah and Israel. Why wouldn't I take it literally? Have you ever checked out scriptures like Isa 53 or Ps 22 from the Jewish writings? It's amazing what they said hundreds of years before the actual happenings occurred.

Hello KFC, I have read much of the Holy Scriptures, studied your New Testament, took a class on the Gospels, etc. The idea that the Hebrews Scripture is pointing to your Jesus is a false notion. Text proofs are difficult at best and very unreliable to dead wrong at worst, especially when dealing with translation issues and cross cultural issues. Literalism is an impossible task. Biblical scholarship requires an expert ubderstanding of the original languages within the context that the piece was written. To take text out of context, translated over again into another language, means that the "word" can (and often is) terribly misused and poorly applied.
One need not go from A to Z however, to not be a literalist does not mean in any sense that one then has permission to just make up something. Indeed, that is what the literalists do through their ignorance of both text and context. One must do a number of things, I believe. We should study closely the original text. If we don't speak the original language, we can do well to use a varied number of translations and thus approximate the original meaning; we should study closely the context of the text, look gfor hints as to the author and the author's intent. We should look for clues as to what the context was of the language and the people of the time; finally, we should have the good sense to not attempt to understand an event of one time withthe text of another.

A reform Jew is a person of the Jewish faith who practices Judaism with an open mind. In Judaism there are four streams, so to speak: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. The first three are the major divisions within the faith, with some blending between them. Orthodoxers hold that the Torah and all the commentaries were handed down to Moses at Sinai. The strictly maintain the 613 commandments of the Torah. Conservatives are essentially Orthodoxers who understand that they live in a modern world, thus some commandments cannot be kept. Reform Jews are the most open and liberal in understanding Torah and God's relationship with man. We do not see the Torah as written by God, nor necessarily devinely inspired. We see there are clear mistakjes, errors, and contradictions in the Torah. However, we do endevour to discover ways to make our lives authentic and see ourselves as partners of God, as all Jews do.

If you type in "Reform Judaism" to google, I am sure you will get a number of websites. Understand thism, unlike Christianity, Jews are encouraged to question and challenge both their faith and God. God does not get a free pass. We have an agreement called a covenant. We do X, He does Y. When we do our part and He fails to do His, it is considered not only our right, but our obligation to demand an answer as to why. This is one reason so many Jews lost their faith during and after the Holocaust. Many thinking Christians, as well.

In one way, the holocaust acted as a catalyst for a major shift in understanding both God and our relationship with Him.

If you wish, we may continue this conversation.

Be well.

Why not get literal? What the prophets said came true. Many prophecies regarding the person of Christ have come true as well as prophecies concerning Judah and Israel. Why wouldn't I take it literally? Have you ever checked out scriptures like Isa 53 or Ps 22 from the Jewish writings? It's amazing what they said hundreds of years before the actual happenings occurred.

Hello KFC, I have read much of the Holy Scriptures, studied your New Testament, took a class on the Gospels, etc. The idea that the Hebrews Scripture is pointing to your Jesus is a false notion. Text proofs are difficult at best and very unreliable to dead wrong at worst, especially when dealing with translation issues and cross cultural issues. Literalism is an impossible task. Biblical scholarship requires an expert ubderstanding of the original languages within the context that the piece was written. To take text out of context, translated over again into another language, means that the "word" can (and often is) terribly misused and poorly applied.
One need not go from A to Z however, to not be a literalist does not mean in any sense that one then has permission to just make up something. Indeed, that is what the literalists do through their ignorance of both text and context. One must do a number of things, I believe. We should study closely the original text. If we don't speak the original language, we can do well to use a varied number of translations and thus approximate the original meaning; we should study closely the context of the text, look gfor hints as to the author and the author's intent. We should look for clues as to what the context was of the language and the people of the time; finally, we should have the good sense to not attempt to understand an event of one time withthe text of another.

A reform Jew is a person of the Jewish faith who practices Judaism with an open mind. In Judaism there are four streams, so to speak: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. The first three are the major divisions within the faith, with some blending between them. Orthodoxers hold that the Torah and all the commentaries were handed down to Moses at Sinai. The strictly maintain the 613 commandments of the Torah. Conservatives are essentially Orthodoxers who understand that they live in a modern world, thus some commandments cannot be kept. Reform Jews are the most open and liberal in understanding Torah and God's relationship with man. We do not see the Torah as written by God, nor necessarily devinely inspired. We see there are clear mistakjes, errors, and contradictions in the Torah. However, we do endevour to discover ways to make our lives authentic and see ourselves as partners of God, as all Jews do.

If you type in "Reform Judaism" to google, I am sure you will get a number of websites. Understand thism, unlike Christianity, Jews are encouraged to question and challenge both their faith and God. God does not get a free pass. We have an agreement called a covenant. We do X, He does Y. When we do our part and He fails to do His, it is considered not only our right, but our obligation to demand an answer as to why. This is one reason so many Jews lost their faith during and after the Holocaust. Many thinking Christians, as well.

In one way, the holocaust acted as a catalyst for a major shift in understanding both God and our relationship with Him.

If you wish, we may continue this conversation.

Be well.

Why not get literal? What the prophets said came true. Many prophecies regarding the person of Christ have come true as well as prophecies concerning Judah and Israel. Why wouldn't I take it literally? Have you ever checked out scriptures like Isa 53 or Ps 22 from the Jewish writings? It's amazing what they said hundreds of years before the actual happenings occurred.

Hello KFC, I have read much of the Holy Scriptures, studied your New Testament, took a class on the Gospels, etc. The idea that the Hebrews Scripture is pointing to your Jesus is a false notion. Text proofs are difficult at best and very unreliable to dead wrong at worst, especially when dealing with translation issues and cross cultural issues. Literalism is an impossible task. Biblical scholarship requires an expert ubderstanding of the original languages within the context that the piece was written. To take text out of context, translated over again into another language, means that the "word" can (and often is) terribly misused and poorly applied.
One need not go from A to Z however, to not be a literalist does not mean in any sense that one then has permission to just make up something. Indeed, that is what the literalists do through their ignorance of both text and context. One must do a number of things, I believe. We should study closely the original text. If we don't speak the original language, we can do well to use a varied number of translations and thus approximate the original meaning; we should study closely the context of the text, look gfor hints as to the author and the author's intent. We should look for clues as to what the context was of the language and the people of the time; finally, we should have the good sense to not attempt to understand an event of one time withthe text of another.

A reform Jew is a person of the Jewish faith who practices Judaism with an open mind. In Judaism there are four streams, so to speak: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. The first three are the major divisions within the faith, with some blending between them. Orthodoxers hold that the Torah and all the commentaries were handed down to Moses at Sinai. The strictly maintain the 613 commandments of the Torah. Conservatives are essentially Orthodoxers who understand that they live in a modern world, thus some commandments cannot be kept. Reform Jews are the most open and liberal in understanding Torah and God's relationship with man. We do not see the Torah as written by God, nor necessarily devinely inspired. We see there are clear mistakjes, errors, and contradictions in the Torah. However, we do endevour to discover ways to make our lives authentic and see ourselves as partners of God, as all Jews do.

If you type in "Reform Judaism" to google, I am sure you will get a number of websites. Understand thism, unlike Christianity, Jews are encouraged to question and challenge both their faith and God. God does not get a free pass. We have an agreement called a covenant. We do X, He does Y. When we do our part and He fails to do His, it is considered not only our right, but our obligation to demand an answer as to why. This is one reason so many Jews lost their faith during and after the Holocaust. Many thinking Christians, as well.

In one way, the holocaust acted as a catalyst for a major shift in understanding both God and our relationship with Him.

If you wish, we may continue this conversation.

Be well.

Why not get literal? What the prophets said came true. Many prophecies regarding the person of Christ have come true as well as prophecies concerning Judah and Israel. Why wouldn't I take it literally? Have you ever checked out scriptures like Isa 53 or Ps 22 from the Jewish writings? It's amazing what they said hundreds of years before the actual happenings occurred.

Hello KFC, I have read much of the Holy Scriptures, studied your New Testament, took a class on the Gospels, etc. The idea that the Hebrews Scripture is pointing to your Jesus is a false notion. Text proofs are difficult at best and very unreliable to dead wrong at worst, especially when dealing with translation issues and cross cultural issues. Literalism is an impossible task. Biblical scholarship requires an expert ubderstanding of the original languages within the context that the piece was written. To take text out of context, translated over again into another language, means that the "word" can (and often is) terribly misused and poorly applied.
One need not go from A to Z however, to not be a literalist does not mean in any sense that one then has permission to just make up something. Indeed, that is what the literalists do through their ignorance of both text and context. One must do a number of things, I believe. We should study closely the original text. If we don't speak the original language, we can do well to use a varied number of translations and thus approximate the original meaning; we should study closely the context of the text, look gfor hints as to the author and the author's intent. We should look for clues as to what the context was of the language and the people of the time; finally, we should have the good sense to not attempt to understand an event of one time withthe text of another.

A reform Jew is a person of the Jewish faith who practices Judaism with an open mind. In Judaism there are four streams, so to speak: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. The first three are the major divisions within the faith, with some blending between them. Orthodoxers hold that the Torah and all the commentaries were handed down to Moses at Sinai. The strictly maintain the 613 commandments of the Torah. Conservatives are essentially Orthodoxers who understand that they live in a modern world, thus some commandments cannot be kept. Reform Jews are the most open and liberal in understanding Torah and God's relationship with man. We do not see the Torah as written by God, nor necessarily devinely inspired. We see there are clear mistakjes, errors, and contradictions in the Torah. However, we do endevour to discover ways to make our lives authentic and see ourselves as partners of God, as all Jews do.

If you type in "Reform Judaism" to google, I am sure you will get a number of websites. Understand thism, unlike Christianity, Jews are encouraged to question and challenge both their faith and God. God does not get a free pass. We have an agreement called a covenant. We do X, He does Y. When we do our part and He fails to do His, it is considered not only our right, but our obligation to demand an answer as to why. This is one reason so many Jews lost their faith during and after the Holocaust. Many thinking Christians, as well.

In one way, the holocaust acted as a catalyst for a major shift in understanding both God and our relationship with Him.

If you wish, we may continue this conversation.

Be well.

Did you not know that Christ spoke more of Hell than he did of Heaven?

That was His privilege. I'm not sure you can do the same. Because as a 'fallen sinful being' by your own theology's definition, your motives for doing so may not always be of the best.

As far as the Prodigal Son goes? If you read the story carefully you'll see the story is not about the two sons but all about the father.

At last we come to the heart of the matter. Perhaps for a fundamentalist every Bible passage has a single simple message, but for the rest of us we try to bring us much thoughtfulness, intelligence, scholarship, interpretative discretion and (for those who believe in it) prayer to understanding the complexity of the message, the story is about the father, but is also about the two sons and its also about a lot of other things. The irony is that the fundamentalist relies on scripture more than many other kinds of christian, but, it sometimes seems to be an impoverished reading of scripture, looking for that simple core message and ignoring any confusing complexities.

Hey Chak, Simmer down will ya?

I'll promise to try and stay on the right side of the civility/rudeness equation, while expressing my passionate thoughts on this subject.
One idea from Buddhism that appeals to me is the idea of using 'skilful' and 'unskilful' means. It's a complex idea, but in the context of our debate it could mean something like 'skilful' = really trying to help somebody and thinking intelligently about what words to use, being mindful of where the other person is coming from and what they may or may not already know, whereas 'unskilful' in this context might mean getting some strong feeling off your chest, without much thought about whether it will actually help the situation. When I read what I have to say on these matters I see an unfortunate mixture of skilful and unskilful means, which I should work on...

... It's an interesting point though; how tough (not rude) can we get and still be 'skilful'?

Perhaps for a fundamentalist every Bible passage has a single simple message,

well I'd say there usually is but one interpretation, but a passage can have many applications. In the Prodigal son story you could focus more on the sons (most do) but I see it more about a lesson on the patience and love of God for his own.

The reason I would say he was "saved" was the fact that while he ended up in the mudhole with the pigs, he wasn't content on staying there. He knew it wasn't befitting his father's son. While you can clean up a pig, it won't be content staying clean and will head for the nearest mudhole ASAP. This son was not content being dirty. I believe we live in a sinful dirty world and we do get dirty but we are not content (as others are) to stay there. We go to Jesus and he washes us (like he did the disciples).

I'll promise to try and stay on the right side of the civility/rudeness equation, while expressing my passionate thoughts on this subject

I'm sure this is just the beginning of many discussions Chak. But I haveta say, you are one of my favorite liberals!!

One idea from Buddhism that appeals to me is the idea of using 'skilful' and 'unskilful' means

gah!!! You're not one of them are you?

When I read what I have to say on these matters I see an unfortunate mixture of skilful and unskilful means, which I should work on...

Me too. We'll work on it together shall we? I'm sure there will be other chances!!

The idea that the Hebrews Scripture is pointing to your Jesus is a false notion

I'd love to know who your teachers were!! I think you didn't get a very good education...you were cheated!!!

Text proofs are difficult at best and very unreliable to dead wrong at worst, especially when dealing with translation issues and cross cultural issues.

I've read of many many scholars that have devoted their life to the study of the original languages of the scriptures and they have assured me as well as countless others that the translation while not perfect is accurate. While a word here and there may not be a best selection for a particular passage it does not change the meaning of said passage.

One must do a number of things, I believe. We should study closely the original text. If we don't speak the original language, we can do well to use a varied number of translations and thus approximate the original meaning; we should study closely the context of the text, look gfor hints as to the author and the author's intent. We should look for clues as to what the context was of the language and the people of the time;

hey....I agree with you here. A text taken out of context is nothing but a pretext. I used this all the time. I spend alot of time looking into the Greek and sometimes hebrew as well. I find out alot more by doing so and it amazes me even more than just the English reading of the scripture.

We see there are clear mistakjes, errors, and contradictions in the Torah.

I would disagree here (of course) and would like to ask...what do you have specifically that would explain your statement?

Understand thism, unlike Christianity, Jews are encouraged to question and challenge both their faith and God. God does not get a free pass. We have an agreement called a covenant. We do X, He does Y. When we do our part and He fails to do His, it is considered not only our right, but our obligation to demand an answer as to why. This is one reason so many Jews lost their faith during and after the Holocaust. Many thinking Christians, as well.

As a Christian, I believe also I should question and challenge my faith. Where did you get the idea we're not to? Paul said, examine yourselves and John said test the spirits to see if they are of God or not.

I do not believe God ever fails to do what he says. Ever. If there is straying going on, it's not God doing the straying, it's us. He's always there, the problem is we sometimes have our back turned to HIM while we follow the worldy ways that so entice us. So if we feel the cold, it's because we left the warmth. Like a log rolling away from the fire.

As far as the Holocaust goes, I believe God was there all the time. Have you ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom? Or Detrich Bonhoffer? It was horrid what went on. My Rabbi grandfather was one you speak of. He lost his faith. But I believe as a result of what happened Israel came into their own land in 1948. God had a plan and it's still progressing.

Israel coming into their own land was predicted all thru the prophets especially by Ezek in his book. Check out Chap 37.

We see there Ezekiel predicts the political and spiritual revival of his nation (1-14) and the reuniting of its two divisions (v15-28). The dry bones indicate an army slain in battle, a fitting description of the then hopeless condition of Israel. To be a restored people, God would have to breathe life into Israel. Notice they will come from the four winds which means from the four quarters of the globe.

How can you say this is not literal? I read writers in the 1700's that were scoffed at when they attempted to say the jews would return to their homeland. I remember reading M.Henry and he said in his commentary on this chapter that history had not caught up with prophecy yet so he couldn't comment further other to say it seems as tho that Israel somehow inherits their land again in the end times.

In one way, the holocaust acted as a catalyst for a major shift in understanding both God and our relationship with Him.

Things like the holocaust also can serve as a testing. The same Sun that melts wax hardens clay. God reveals what's in us when we get put to the fire. But like a silversmith watching his sliver....he never takes his eyes off the sliver while in the fire and takes it out at the right time.

J.C. Ryle wrote in his book, "Are you ready for the end of time?" on page 112;

"Reader however great the difficulties surrounding many parts of unfulfilled prophecy, two points appear to my own mind to stand out as plainly as if written by a sunbeam. One of these points is the second personal advent (coming) of our Lord Jesus before the Millennium. The other, of these points, is the future literal gathering of the Jewish nation and their restoration to their own land.

I tell no man that these two truths are essential to salvation, and that he cannot be saved except he sees them with my own eyes. But I tell any man that these truths appear to me to be distinctly set down in Holy scripture and that the denial of them is as astonishing and incomprehensible to my own mind as the denial of the divinity of Christ."

He wrote this in 1867!!!! How'd he know if the bible is to be taken only symbolically? Did it not happen as he said? When Ryle wrote of the future regathering of the Jews it was not a popular sentiment. The thought of this feeble group of Jews ever returning to her ancient homeland seemed impossible. There was no calling for this re-gathering at the time and nothing on the horizon to even hint that the "dry bones" spoken by the prophet Ezekiel would begin to come together when he wrote these words.

There are about 1,000 prophecies that I know of in scripture with about 500 that have come true so far. I believe as the first 500 have been fulfilled the rest will be as well. Why wouldn't I? It's logical.

Hello KFC,
I think we are moving way off topic here. The notion of prophecy is strabge to me and of dubious value. In the first place, I see it as pretty much in the same category as sooth-saying and horoscopes, it is easy to fit current situations into generalized, vague statements made in the past. Moreover, another issue with prophecy is, to what end? I mean, lets assume all prohesies are correct and "come true" (doesn't that have a sort of child-like ring to it?), so what? Of what possible value is it? Buddha did not care to engage in discussion about God or prophecy because he saw them as pointless and not helpful to the task at hand. What task is that? The task of living in the moment here and now, making this world a better place for us all. When we are caught in the web of ancient scripture, in meaningless (or meaningful) discussion about God, what are we npot doing? We are noit living correctly. We are living in thought, in dream, in conception, in belief, but not in reality.

Be well.

I've also looked at a lot of religions and I can tell you that this fire and brimstone stuff is just about the most infantile and immature spirituality I've come across

The notion of Heaven is wishful thinking for yourself. The notion of Hell is wishful thinking for your enemies.

I mean, lets assume all prohesies are correct and "come true" (doesn't that have a sort of child-like ring to it?), so what? Of what possible value is it?

It shows the integrity adding value to what had been said. You know it's true because it did indeed come to pass as previously stated. That's how you know if something is of God or not; or a true prophet or not. If it doesn't have 100% accuracy it's not of God.

Instead of dismissing this "stuff" as nothing more than witchcraft why not check it out for youself instead of going by what others are telling you. You may be very surprised.

I challenge people to give the God of the bible one year of their life to study. One year. In the 80 years or so of life that most get to enjoy....what's one year?



The only reason I brought up all that on prophecy was to show why I have to take it literally. I would be foolish not to in my estimation because of what has come true predicted in some instances thousands of years ahead of time.

If someone close to you had an uncanny foresight on the next day's weather time and time again, after a while wouldn't you come to trust in this person's ability to discern the coming day(s)? Don't you put your trust in people or things after they have proven themselves to you? Why should we any less trust in what God has promised to us after seeing the things that have already come to pass as he previously promised?

If someone close to you had an uncanny foresight on the next day's weather time and time again, after a while wouldn't you come to trust in this person's ability to discern the coming day(s)? Don't you put your trust in people or things after they have proven themselves to you? Why should we any less trust in what God has promised to us after seeing the things that have already come to pass as he previously promised?

You make an assumption here, most unwarrented, that people who discount "prophesy" are not trusting of God. In my case, I trust God implicitly and have no need to look to a book or Him for what comes tomorrow. I have faith in my Buddha nature that I will take care of tomorrow when it comes. You see, I see God and myse;lf not only as partners, but one. I have complete faith in this life, its processes, and God's presence in it. I do not fear God nor do I fear tomorrow or death.In the great scheme of the universe, when we see it clearly, there is absolutely nothing to fear.

Be well.

You see, I see God and myse;lf not only as partners, but one

This is exactly what Satan told Eve in the Garden...."you shall be as God." That's not a concept I can understand.

I can't see how you can separate God from His word. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not one to mince words..you know that) is that I believe you are following the god of this earth. And it's not the God of the bible.

I do not fear God nor do I fear tomorrow or death.In the great scheme of the universe, when we see it clearly, there is absolutely nothing to fear.

You may know that in the Christian faith, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I too do not fear death or the afterlife, because I believe in the one that conquered death for me. What makes you so sure? How can you be sure?

Jesus saved me from spiritual death. What saves you? Yourself?

One thing I say often is many want the Kingdom but do not want the King. That's a problem. If I had to save myself? Oh boy!!

Be Well Also (really well)

The notion of Heaven is wishful thinking for yourself. The notion of Hell is wishful thinking for your enemies.

while this seems funny at first read, it's really not when I think of hell. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. That's why I do what I do. I believe this world is just the beginning of life for us. When we pass into the next, it's where eternity begins.

This is exactly what Satan told Eve in the Garden...."you shall be as God." That's not a concept I can understand.

I'm not talking about concepts to understand or not understand, I'm talking about reality. 1. God is omnipresent, 2. I am present, 3. there is no place where God is not, 4. God is within me, I am within God. From a Jewish perspective, we understand creation is a work in progress, not a finished product. We are here with God to assist Him in completing the work of creation.

can't see how you can separate God from His word. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not one to mince words..you know that) is that I believe you are following the god of this earth. And it's not the God of the bible.

The Bible is only one aspect of God's "word." All of creation, indeed, the entire universe, is God's word. How is it that you set one above the other? There are not two Gods, just one, though He is called by many names Adonai, God, Allah, and understood in myriad different ways. The wonderful thing is that each way is like a window or gate to Him. All we need do is enter.

You may know that in the Christian faith, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I too do not fear death or the afterlife, because I believe in the one that conquered death for me. What makes you so sure? How can you be sure? Jesus saved me from spiritual death. What saves you? Yourself?

If it is true that fear is the beginning of wisdom in your faith, I will run from it. God is not something to be afraid of. Fear only creates walls, not opennings. What makes me so sure is experience. Through Zazen, life and death are one, no difference. When the self drops away, what is left? Nothing, vast emptiness. This is the true nature of things. I am happy for you that you believe someone saved you from something. It is good to have faith.

In my humble opinion, however, there is nothing to be saved from except delusion. The original sin of my faith is the closing of our eyes to the non-dualistic nature of the universe and its processes There is nothing handed down from some mythical Adam through the line of beings to the present, save our karma, the law of eternal cause and effect. We do not see sin as something damnable, only a mistake. Like all mistakes, sin can be corrected and atoned for.

Zazen saves us from this delusion. This practice of all Buddhas from time immemorial to the present and beyond. Lord Buddha didn't ask us to believe in (or "on") him. He asked us only to practice silent illumination for ourselves, test his teachings for ourselves, and see to their truth or falsity. Zen practice is nothing if not pragmatic.

Be well.