Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies

From the L. A. Times



http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6596503.story

Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies
Many codes intended to protect gays from harassment are illegal,
conservatives argue.
By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer
April 10, 2006

ATLANTA — Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be
intolerant.

Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against
homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a
senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual
orientation.

Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to
religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its
tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to
force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to
eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The
religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance
programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and
lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality,
anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their
membership to all.

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement
as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he
said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be
Christian."

In that spirit, the Christian Legal Society, an association of judges
and lawyers, has formed a national group to challenge tolerance
policies in federal court. Several nonprofit law firms — backed by
major ministries such as Focus on the Family and Campus Crusade for
Christ — already take on such cases for free.

The legal argument is straightforward: Policies intended to protect
gays and lesbians from discrimination end up discriminating against
conservative Christians. Evangelicals have been suspended for wearing
anti-gay T-shirts to high school, fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month
at work, reprimanded for refusing to attend diversity training. When
they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.

A recent survey by the Anti-Defamation League found that 64% of
American adults — including 80% of evangelical Christians — agreed with
the statement "Religion is under attack in this country."

"The message is, you're free to worship as you like, but don't you dare
talk about it outside the four walls of your church," said Stephen
Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law
and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.

Critics dismiss such talk as a right-wing fundraising ploy. "They're
trying to develop a persecution complex," said Jeremy Gunn, director of
the American Civil Liberties Union's Program on Freedom of Religion and
Belief.

Others fear the banner of religious liberty could be used to justify
all manner of harassment.

"What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans
shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked
Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism
angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from
discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction
that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual
orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

By equating homosexuality with race, Baylor said, tolerance policies
put conservative evangelicals in the same category as racists. He
predicts the government will one day revoke the tax-exempt status of
churches that preach homosexuality is sinful or that refuse to hire
gays and lesbians.

"Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor, who directs the
Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "If we
don't address this now, it will only get worse."

Christians are fighting back in a case involving Every Nation Campus
Ministries at California State University. Student members of the
ministry on the Long Beach and San Diego campuses say their mission is
to model a virtuous lifestyle for their peers. They will not accept as
members gays, lesbians or anyone who considers homosexuality "a natural
part of God's created order."

Legal analysts agree that the ministry, as a private organization, has
every right to exclude gays; the Supreme Court affirmed that principle
in a case involving the Boy Scouts in 2000. At issue is whether the
university must grant official recognition to a student group that
discriminates.

The students say denying them recognition — and its attendant benefits,
such as funding — violates their free-speech rights and discriminates
against their conservative theology. Christian groups at public
colleges in other states have sued using similar arguments. Several of
those lawsuits were settled out of court, with the groups prevailing.

In California, however, the university may have a strong defense in
court. The California Supreme Court recently ruled that the city of
Berkeley was justified in denying subsidies to the Boy Scouts because
of that group's exclusionary policies. Eddie L. Washington, the lawyer
representing Cal State, argues the same standard should apply to the
university.

"We're certainly not going to fund discrimination," Washington said.
*****



6,630 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top

Nice catchy title, but the truth is, she is suing for free speech.  Big Difference.

I dont like the message that the NOI or KKK spew, but I have to defend their right to spew it, or I am next.

Reply #2 Top
Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

I suppose this is the heart of the matter. Before homosexuality was 'invented' in the 1860s the belief was that homosexual activity was something carried out by 'basically heterosexual' people giving way to 'perverted lusts'. If you read your Bible that pretty much seems to be St Paul's take on the matter.

Nowadays its pretty much settled that there is such a thing as a sexual orientation, even if its 'cause' is unknown. So that makes a nonsense of the 'not an inborn trait' part.

However, these fundamentalists (*) have a fall back position: even if homosexuality is an 'orientation' or 'inborn trait', (which they basically deny - see above) then choosing to 'give in to it' and sexually express it remains 'a lifestyle choice'. This is undoubtedly true, in the way that people 'choose' to put food in their mouths when their stomach rumbles.

Now, of course you can live without sex, but you can't live without food. I believe St. Paul makes this argument somewhere. But it is still a huge energy within most of us, having as much to do with our need for love, companionship and self-giving as it has with physical pleasure. And while I have a great respect for those who embrace celibacy for religious reasons of their own, it just seems such an irrational thing to demand of other people.

For the fundie, the 'proper' thing to do is get down on your knees and ask Jesus to make you straight. Fine, if that's your thing, but an unreasonable thing to try to impose on any free society.

Ultimately the most distatseful part of the quote from Gregory S. Baylor is where he basically says that he does support discrimination against gays and lesbians because it is a choice.

(*) BTW I say fundamentalists because it is deeply unfair to other christians to say that they all believe that God is calling then to go around wearing 'anti-gay t-shirts', whatever their views on the matter.)

Nice catchy title, but the truth is, she is suing for free speech.

This is true. I'll also concede that many christians who have a problem with homosexuality also have a genuine love and pastoral concern for those 'afflicted' with that 'plight'. Not however, the 'pro-discrimination' t-shirt wearers ('God hates fags' anyone?) and like with the other irrational bigots you mention, its a message we should use our free speech to counter.
Reply #3 Top
Limiting expression is wrong. Period. Whether it be telling people what they can and can't say about homosexuals, or telling people in Europe what kind of cartoons they can publish, or telling people they can't spread their religious beliefs. The power you give the government to do these things in the name of sensitivity can immediately be turned around to stifle more reasonable expression.

Look at China, for instance. You are a member of Falun Gong who can't in all conceince lie. Soldiers walk around asking people if they are believers in Falun Gong. When you say yes, off you go for re-education with a hose across your back. Their excuse? Religions that seek to indoctrinate others are illegal. You can be a Catholic, but you can't talk anyone into being a Catholic. WHen they deem your religion a cult, you lose even more freedom, even the freedom to admit your belief at all.

Look at Venezuala, where laws such as these are turned on their ear so that being disrespectful to the government is a crime, and thereby reporters are threatened with jail for reporting during election year. The problem isn't this or that is insensitive, the problem is the government telling you what you can and can't say.

No, you can't yell fire in a crowded theator, but that isn't "expression" of thoughts and ideas. It's a tired tactic of people who want to crush other's ideals to say that stating them is "inciting" people to violence. I don't agree with it in terms of Islam, and I don't agree with it in terms of Christianity.

There's a difference between stating your opinions about Jews and telling people to kill Jews. There's a difference between stating your beliefs about homosexuals and calling for violence against them. What if the popular consensus is wrong, and what is right is illegal to utter? How long will wrongs go untended before enough people telling the truth are abused.

I don't think people should be able to threaten or intimidate homosexuals, but when we reach the point that stating your heartfelt opinion is threatening then we are afraid of ideas. No one benefits except oppressors in such an environment.
Reply #4 Top
I don't think people should be able to threaten or intimidate homosexuals, but when we reach the point that stating your heartfelt opinion is threatening then we are afraid of ideas.

I think that this is exactly right. George Orwell said that, "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear".
The issue for me is where "stating heartfelt opinion" shades into "threatening and intimidating". In reading the link I make a judgement that Gregory S. Baylor and his crew walk both sides of that line, but I may be wrong.
Reply #5 Top
If this institution of higher learning has decided that concepts are now sacred cows, I think I now know the true meaning of the british insult "Stupid GIT".
Reply #6 Top
I tend to wonder how this would play if a homosexual activist organization was censured for being intolerant of people's religious beliefs when they ridicule them? How many times have we seen Christianity panned as ignorant and intolerant, etc., here?

I bet the shoe would not fit so well if it were on the other foot. Those demeaning Christianity would no doubt cry to the heavens about their right to free expression if they were told that they couldn't condemn people's religious beliefs. How are secular beliefs any more sacrosanct?
Reply #7 Top
(*) BTW I say fundamentalists because it is deeply unfair to other christians to say that they all believe that God is calling then to go around wearing 'anti-gay t-shirts', whatever their views on the matter.)


In all the fundamental churches I've attended, I've yet to know one Christian that would wear an offensive, tasteless t-shirt against homosexuals. A bunch of us do wear Christian T-shirts but they are for the most part positive. We are called to speak the truth in love, not hate. We are to be sensitive but not to the point where we don't give out truth either.

God has given each believer a gift to be used in His work. This could be the gift of teaching, hospitality, discernment, etc. For some it's the gift of prophecy which basically means to be "forthright" in telling the truth about God; not pussyfutting around but being bold enough to stand up for truth.

It's not a popular gift and for the most part those with the gift of prophecy are not liked unless they have information another desires to hear. I believe that's what God has gifted me with. I don't mince words. I will flat out say homosexuality is not a good thing. It's hurtful and harmful and goes against all God's laws. But I don't think it's any worse than gossip, adultery, murder or anyother harmful behavior. I also wouldn't be out there with signs and t-shirts denouncing these people.

I had a homosexual uncle who I believe now most likely died of Aids. I loved him and would have no problem having him to my house or if he'd come inviting him to my church. But would I say what he's doing is ok? No and I'd tell him so. Otherwise I'd be a liar and there would be no love there. I don't believe he's in a good place now, but that's between him and his creator.
Reply #8 Top
How are secular beliefs any more sacrosanct?

They're not. The truth is most of us are selective in what we get outraged about - you as much as me. Maybe you and Para choose to be more exercised by the apparent assault on religious ideas, than any assault on the human dignity of homosexual persons, because it means more to you. And if you believe that homosexuality is ultimately 'wrong' for religious or social reasons it would be hard to expect you to do otherwise. I put up my hands and admit that the hurt feelings of fundamentalist christians mean less to me than if I were a more truly empathetic person. Probably truth to tell the same failure of sympathetic imagination is involved in both cases, but after all we are only human.

Actually I have no way of measuring how 'hurt' a fundamentalist christian is in having her/his beliefs mocked as opposed to say a homosexual having their personhood mocked and derided (and yes, even the way I wrote that shows a skewed bias), and I hardly think that there is any objective measure for this. In terms of person to person interaction the solution is obvious: civility and kindness can make life more pleasant for everyone, even when the love that the mystics sing of is beyond us. How that translates into a social or political policy, well, I have no idea.

We are called to speak the truth in love, not hate.

For that you should not be faulted. The linked article shows that your attitude, while exemplary, is not universal.
Reply #9 Top
I know that I am coming from an American perspective, but it seems strange to me, though, that a person's religious beliefs would be more apt to be censored than secular beliefs. I realize that a persons ideals regarding their sexuality are no less "belief", and no less sacred, but we have a tradition of protecting religious expression here in the US. It seems odd to me that people can so easily overlook derision of one and not the other now.

I'm not in any way saying people shouldn't be allowed to deride people's religious beliefs. I've condemned people for doing it, but I don't dispute their right to. I'm just puzzled that western nations would now start discounting religious expression in the name of hurt feelings, while protecting secular expression as if it were sacrosanct.

I'm biased, I know, but I don't think you have to be biased to see the dichotomy there. The same people who are outraged about the idea that homosexuals have been forced to keep their lifestyle in the closet now think Christians should.

Doesn't that seem odd to anyone else? After years of being told they can't have gay pride parades, they try to silence Christian activists. Don't they understand that the power they seek to provide the government could easily be turned right back on them if the winds of influence change?
Reply #10 Top
Chak
They're not. The truth is most of us are selective in what we get outraged about - you as much as me. Maybe you and Para choose to be more exercised by the apparent assault on religious ideas, than any assault on the human dignity of homosexual persons, because it means more to you.


That's the thing isn't it. If I believe homosexuality is wrong, that doesn't meant I hate homosexuals, or even think any homosexual should be harrassed... I also resent the crap out of any elitist policy that tells me I can't say out loud that I think it is wrong.

This institution of higher re-education is telling people they can't speak their minds... that is fine, it's their school, which means they get to set policy for their school.

However, they reveal themselves just as close minded as they accuse others of being. And they earn the title "Stupid GIT".
Reply #11 Top
The same people who are outraged about the idea that homosexuals have been forced to keep their lifestyle in the closet now think Christians should.

By and large this is true, although it is certainly not my stance. I think that it's covered by that old saw "two wrongs don't make a right". It is an 'equal and opposite' reaction, opposite in intention but equally misguided.

I do wonder though if they are actually equal in potential for harm. Where are America's fundamentalist equivalents of Matthew Shepard? Perhaps they exist, but I've not heard of them. I have however heard about the 'Pastor' Fred Phelps's plan to build a 'monument' to Shepard to include a picture of him and using the words: "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22." Now, how does this equate on the scale of hurt for his parents and loved ones with a christian being told that believing in miracles makes her/him 'a moron'?

It's true that many christians, including fundamentalists, have denounced Phelps for his obviously rather unhinged tactics. That is as it should be. Extremes are, by definition, unrepresentative, but they do stake out the boundaries by which the argument will be fought.

The ideal solution would be free speech for all, kindness and civility in our social interactions and a willingness to respectfully listen out for the useful glint of truth that is bound to be found somewhere in any opposing argument. Meanwhile back on planet Earth the arguments get rougher because it's not enough for us to be 'right', we have to force everyone else to acknowledge this too.

If I believe homosexuality is wrong, that doesn't meant I hate homosexuals

Yes, indeed. Some of the arguments that seek to show that homosexuality is wrong are thoughtful, subtle and part of an important rational debate about how society should function and just what is the essence of our humanity. No surprise to hear that I disagree with those arguments, but I'm happy to engage with them. Just as long as you realise that you're wrong.
Reply #12 Top
I don't think there's been any equivalent to the violent gay hating, thank goodness. I've certainly seen people in discussions tell Christians they were going to burn in hell, etc., though, because of their beliefs. There are constant references to Nazism, priestly pedophelia, etc., as well.

If I had the intestinal fortitude (no pun intended) I'd go troll some gay messageboards and find some reference material, but I think we both know what I'd find. In that recent article I wrote about the counter-protest in San Francisco there were some pretty rash things said, and that's behind a podium from a local politician.

I think the difference, and apologies for my pessimism, comes from the fact that only recently could gay and lesbian groups get their bullhorns and spew venom publicly without fear of violence. I'm afraid there'll be plenty of instances of hate-backlash before people realize that it isn't any different than what is being handed to them.
Reply #13 Top
I've certainly seen people in discussions tell Christians they were going to burn in hell, etc., though, because of their beliefs.

Yes indeed. Many catholics have indeed been told this by 'born-again' christians.

If I had the intestinal fortitude (no pun intended) I'd go troll some gay messageboards and find some reference material, but I think we both know what I'd find.

I'm supposing that you would find a lot of verbal violence against born-again christians - a lot of anger translating into intolerant words helping in turn to fuel even more anger and mutual incomprehension.

But in this whole pity fest, can you show me the christians beaten to death by baseball bats by angry gays, or miserable christian teens slitting their wrists because the mockery of their savior is too much, or atheist parents throwing their christian kids onto the street and telling them that they are sick and unloveable? You see, extreme as these examples are I really don't see their equivalents coming from the other side.

Now, it may be that Christ's injunction to his followers to 'bless those that curse you' and turn the other cheek is just an ideal that it's unfair to actually hold people to. But a less idealistic expectation might be for people to recognise that their possible 'hurt feelings' do not equate to broken bodies and bones. Indeed many a more liberal christian is indeed troubled by the great harm that the bigoted may have done by taking the teaching of their religion out of context.

I'm afraid there'll be plenty of instances of hate-backlash before people realize that it isn't any different than what is being handed to them.

But will it be proportional? Unkind word for unkind word? Or is one side more likely to respond than the other with physical violence in their fury?
Reply #14 Top
There’s no comparison between ridiculing someone’s beliefs to ridiculing homosexuals.
Step outside of your boxes for a minute and try not to let your own beliefs get in the way. All gays and lesbians know that they were born they way they are. Just like someone’s born with red hair and freckles, you know “gingers”. Regardless of whether or not that’s true, that’s what they think they know to be true.

And this isn’t just your garden-variety ridicule this is a massive campaign to spread the idea that your very existence is a perversion of life, all based on an infallible book written by man. So there’s no reasoning with you, they have red hair and your going to condemn them for it forever.
Reply #15 Top
And this isn’t just your garden-variety ridicule this is a massive campaign to spread the idea that your very existence is a perversion of life, all based on an infallible book written by man.

Indeed, and try as I might I cannot comprehend the lack of sensitivity to the hurt that this causes. I think that any kind of religion that dulls our sensitivity and compassion has to be deeply suspect.
Reply #16 Top
There may be differences in spouting off against a christian vs spouting off against a homosexual, but there is one core issue that trumps all. The fact that it is speech, the expression of one's ideas that is at stake here. We are talking about the right to express your views, regardless of what they are. Many Christians feel that it is something they are in fact born to, that it is something that is just a part of them as much as homosexuals feel they were born that way (which I'm inclined to believe).

There is a difference however between "I hate gays" and "Go kill all gays" One is freedom of speech, one is promoting violence, which is actually not a protected form of speech (see manner time and place restrictions). Most policies in place at universities and places of the like make BOTH a crime of sorts. It is wrong, and actually illegal for a state funded institution to enact a policy that limits the peaceful expression of views.

We have to protect this right, even when it's used in ways we detest. Even when it puts forth ideas and views that we find repulsive. The reason is, what happens when things suddenly shift and we find religious fundamentalists in control? What happens when the current political correct hypersensitivity goes away and we swing to the other extreme? Limiting speech here creates a precedent for limiting speech later.

And in the end, the greatest injury you can do to people who spout words of hate, is to allow them to continue. To try and stop them makes it look as if they might be on to something real or true. If you let them continue to tilt at windmills, eventually people will realize that it's hate fueling them and nothing else, and their message will be discarded. Give them enough rope to hang themselves basically.

But in the end, realize that for as detestable as you find someone's point of view, there's someone out there who finds your views equally vile. Who gets to choose what is acceptable? Who gets to be the judge? Why you? Why not the person who hates all that you stand for?

*Note... I'm referring to extremists when talking about messages of hate etc.
Reply #17 Top
With palms together,
Hello All, Frankly, I am in a quandry about all of this. I believe hate speach is evil and that it is hurtful and that we ought not do it. Much is made of the Christian's right to tell people about Jesus, that people are going to burn in hell without him, and so forth. As if it is OK to use a religious belief as a weapon. My speech regarding Christianity has not been pleasent, I am aware, and I am trying to be more kind. Kindness, however, is rooted in kinship and Christians keep doing and saying things that seem to be decidedly unfamily-like. I did not begin life having issues with Christian intolerance. That happened as a result of assaults, repetative assaults.
Bakerstreet has a good point, I suspect, about frredom of speech. I do not like the government getting involved in such matters either. On the other hand, Christians have a very hard time keeping their stuff to themselves and once their mouths open, belittlement of others is soon to follow. At least with *some* Christians, at any rate. So, what does a civil society do? My sense is that people who exclude brand themselves as small minded and judgemental.
Once in the deep south I was told that since I was a minority I might as well flaunt it...sort of akin to walking in your own authority, I suppose. But I bewlieve my flaunting should end at another's door.

Be well.
Reply #18 Top
I find it a tad hypocritical that you are so up in arms about South Dakota, Sodaiho, and yet you imply that 'civil society' could actually take measures to prevent its citizens from belittling one another. It doesn't matter what is 'ok', or what is 'unfamily like'. Those, again, are subjective values that I can't force on you, and you can't force on me, and that no one should sanction the government to force on EITHER of us.

You see, when you start legislating "hate speech", you let the government define hate. Next year the new government will tweak the word, and the next one will do it again. Eventually "hate" will turn to "disrespect". and eventually people's political beliefs will find their way in and eventually it will be illegal to speak out against the government. Bank on it.

Given that kind of power, government will abuse it. Period. That's the nature of government. The only hope is to accept everyone's freedom to express and offend and enjoy keeping our own.
Reply #19 Top
I don't know many homosexuals. Never have and probably never will. Do I like them? Not those who want to make an issue of their sex lives. I don't care to hear heterosexuals tell me about theirs either. I'm not a therapist, and what they do with other people is there business. For one thing, if the other person in their exploits is not present, then how do I know they want me to hear anything said about them that may or may not be true. Shut up!
Having said that, let me say this in hopes to put some understanding between all of us struggling to be so nice to one another. Prior to the rise of the 'gay agenda', the Christian community had very little to say publicly about the homosexual lifestyle 'choice'. If an individual approached a church leader with a question or concern about that issue, a knowledgeable Christian or Jew could point to references in the Bible to show the thought of God on the subject, or actions that were taken by Him or by those whom He pleased to use to make His point. This in fact is what the Bible is all about. God shows man, in all his falleness, and demonstrates in
word and deed how He would have us to live. When the Bible was written there weren't all these super over paid professionals guessing what the truth might really be, as is the case today. At any rate, the church was not going around and urging its members to hate or beat or kill anyone. The fact is, well, let me say its my guess, that most homosexual harassment(and I don't think there was all that much of it) was by juvenile delinquents or young men who might have felt they were being 'hit' on by the homosexual. I grew up in a big city's suburb that had its share of violence, and really don't remember hearing much of that type of thing, not that I'm all knowing, you know, like God is. I believe it was the organized homosexual that began the current fray, bashing or mocking the church, and as has now become apparent, seeking to move society and the government to legislate against the freedoms held so dear by the very Christian founders of this nation, to whom we can thank for the 'right' to be having this conversation. The Church has learned through centuries of persecution, by all types of persecutors, that is happening all around the world even as we speak, has learned the need to defend itself. I for one believe it to be the world's best and brightest hope for peace, and worth defending.
Reply #20 Top
Having said that, let me say this in hopes to put some understanding between all of us struggling to be so nice to one another. Prior to the rise of the 'gay agenda', the Christian community had very little to say publicly about the homosexual lifestyle 'choice'. If an individual approached a church leader with a question or concern about that issue, a knowledgeable Christian or Jew could point to references in the Bible to show the thought of God on the subject, or actions that were taken by Him or by those whom He pleased to use to make His point. This in fact is what the Bible is all about. God shows man, in all his falleness, and demonstrates in word and deed how He would have us to live. When the Bible was written there weren't all these super over paid professionals guessing what the truth might really be, as is the case today.


Thank you for this post. I think you are correct in some respects, but I wonder about the assumptions. Prior to the "gay agenda" the church had little to say because the issues affecting gays were institutionalzed, part of the culture both in text and subtext. Our law was, in its inception, based on a Christian. puritan code as well as English Poor Laws. Just as Abolitionists fought with to have slavery outlawed, andthe sufferagettes fought to gain rights for woment, often against the conservative establishment, so too, a "gay agenda."

God shows man in a religious context and there it should remain. Our law should be established on ethical principles, not religious ones.

When the bible was written, there were no democracies, Our rights were determined by monarchs acting on behalf of their God or gods or their civic beliefs and whims. There were people like Moses, Buddha, and Jesus who stand up to them and became lights to the world.

I believe it was the organized homosexual that began the current fray, bashing or mocking the church, and as has now become apparent, seeking to move society and the government to legislate against the freedoms held so dear by the very Christian founders of this nation, to whom we can thank for the 'right' to be having this conversation. The Church has learned through centuries of persecution, by all types of persecutors, that is happening all around the world even as we speak, has learned the need to defend itself. I for one believe it to be the world's best and brightest hope for peace, and worth defending.


Of course when organized resistance to hate arises there will be resistance. It is in our nature to be conservative and resist change. The gay agenda is not attacking our freedoms, it is asking that our freedoms be equally applied and that hate toward individuals be understood as wrong. The church is hardly under attack, perhaps the policies of some church systems are, and in my opinion, rightly so.

The Christian founders of this nation were deeply suspect of churches wanting or getting too much power in civil government. Most, not all were Christian, but Christian then, and Christian now are two very different things.

Be well.
Reply #21 Top
And thank you also for your kind and informative reply. I just got home from a busy day, and was wondering what I would find in reply to my response to your post, for as we are all well aware this is indeed a very sensitive subject matter here. I have a flood of ideas and thoughts on how we got to where we now find ourselves as a nation in regards to 'us and them'. These problems have not suddenly appeared out of thin air, and I think that the power play antics (you like hockey?) of the gay advocates show an insensitivity towards any that do not agree or understand their actions. I realize that I'm not aware of how it feels to live in a society that 'protects' itself, with laws, from people that chose to deviate from the norms so much so that medical associations, up until recently, classified them as sexual deviates.That's how it was for homosexuals, and who can blame them for trying to paint a better picture of themselves. However, the existing 'picture' would, I'm sure you'll agree, give any person in a responsible family role reason for caution. My 'insensitivity' case in point being being the attempt to de-fund the Boy Scouts for not allowing avowed homosexuals to be the leaders of young and impressionable boys, and to do this almost immediately after the courts ruled in favor of anti-discrimination practices in hiring and housing. What's up with that? They're acting like democrats trying to defund the troops on a so-called mandate that any thinking person knows is at best mythical but blatantly democratic politics. (forgive my trying to be cute).
There is a definite need for debate on the two sides points of view, but let's have the debate before we let bullshit rule the day.
Reply #22 Top
Frankly I think the issue is quite simple based upon a few simple suppositions.

1. Everyone has a right to work, housing, education, etc and should not be discriminated against in those areas. Laws to ensure that are reasonable although fruitless in the end. You can't legislate beliefs or opinions, but protection against discrimination, especially by the government, is reasonable just the same.

2. Everyone has a right to free speech, even those we disagree with.

3. No-one has any inalienable right to not have their feelings hurt. Any law whose sole intention is to protect anyone from having their feelings hurt is pointless, stupid, and ultimately unconstitutional (in the US) based upon item #2. Adults should behave like adults and not go crying to the boss, university president, or a lawyer because someone hurt their little feelings. Those people who do need to grow up.

Reply #23 Top
forefather writes: I think that the power play antics (you like hockey?) of the gay advocates show an insensitivity towards any that do not agree or understand their actions.

So Daiho: Yes, I would agree here, but no, I do not enjoy hockey. Aggressive advocates often are counter-productive.

forefather: I realize that I'm not aware of how it feels to live in a society that protects itself, with laws, from people that chose to deviate from the norms so much so that medical associations, up until recently, classified them as sexual deviates. This would, I'm sure you'll agree, give any person in a responsible family role reason for caution.

So Daiho: There are many things that give me as a parent reason for caution. Sexual predators, are one, but gays are no more likely than heteros to be sexual predators. Medical Associations, such as the American Psychiatric Association, also used to codify women who wanted too much sex as deviants, as well. Norms change, they are constantly in motion. My concern is with those who would harm others out of fear that they themselves might be harmed.

forefather: Case in point being being the attempt to de-fund the Boy Scouts for not allowing avowed homosexuals to be the leaders of young and impressionable boys, and to do this almost immediately after the courts ruled in favor of anti-discrimination practices in hiring and housing. What's up with that?

So Daiho: An avowed homosexual? Hmmm. You mean a person who prefers the same sex? One who does no harm? One who is an adult and does what he or she does with another consenting adult in the privacy of their home? Someone who has a child and wants to participate in scouting? Again, there is a profound difference between sexual orientation and sexual aggression. My daughter was raped by heterosexual men. My scoutmaster in Miami sexually molested his daughter. Its the preditor that's the problem, not the orientation.

forefather: They're acting like democrats trying to defund the troops on a so-called mandate that any thinking person knows is at best mythical but blatantly democratic politics.

So Daiho: I don't know about this. I really think there is a large difference between stopping the funding for a war and not funding troops. The troops will get paid. They just won't be fighting. Politics. Yeppers. I think you are correct here. It seems to me the people spoke in a very political way in the last election. Most of us want an end to our involvement in this religious war. Our president seems not to get the message.

Oh well, so what else is new?

Be well.

Reply #24 Top
3. No-one has any inalienable right to not have their feelings hurt. Any law whose sole intention is to protect anyone from having their feelings hurt is pointless, stupid, and ultimately unconstitutional (in the US) based upon item #2. Adults should behave like adults and not go crying to the boss, university president, or a lawyer because someone hurt their little feelings. Those people who do need to grow up.


Hello Mason. I agree with you in the main. But this issue is far larger than hurt feelings. Hate Speech can and does cause real harm. People respond to hate speech in ways we cannot predict, such as mob violence, lynchings, beatings, and so on. Given such history in cases of racial, ethnic, and sexual discrimination, hate speech can easily be understood as assault (a threat of violence). Many US jusisdictions allow charges of Verbal Assault, but not all. So, a law that makes the offense illegal in all jurisdictions would be wise.

People do not go "crying" to their boss, in the main. They usually make a complaint. And if ytou were assaulted, I assume you would do the same. And if you were injured in the assault, I assume you would want to be compensated or "made whole" through the courts for your injury.

Then again, maybe you wouldn't.

Be well.
Reply #25 Top
People respond to hate speech in ways we cannot predict, such as mob violence, lynchings, beatings, and so on.


mob violence isn't illegal? Lynchings are legal? Beatings? ALL of these actions are illegal, sodaiho, and ALL should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Next you will have us locking up every fundamental Christian in American for quoting Jesus in saying "I am THE way, THE truth, THE light".

Prosecute actions. Do not prosecute words. Violent men are responsible for their own actions, those whose words they twist are NOT.