they haven't been proven innocent, either

I always thought that you were innocent until proven guilty [that's very tongue-in-cheek, Gid. I know what you meant.]

lazy, stupid, venal, sub-human, inhumane and degenerate Bill Mahar? he may be lazy, venal and degenerate but he ain't stupid.

He's a liberal.

He's a liberal.

actually he's a libertarian.

It wasn't Limbaugh, you self-righteous jerk. It was a Pittsburgh-local sports news guy.

i didn't mean to suggest it was. he aint the only drug-addled old gasbag on the air. your boy broadcasting his race-baiting insinuations over wuwp (or is it wss? wab?) is proof of that.

Your parents did

yo mama

There are enough gasbags on this case already, kb - you don't need to horn in. As for the gasbag wars, however, I'll side with those on the side of innocent till proven guilty, even the ones you characterize as "drug-addled" - hardly the sort of characterization one would expect to hear from a caring, understanding, forgiving & sensitive liberal.

And the race-baiting started with those rallying around the accuser, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge.

even the ones you characterize as "drug-addled" - hardly the sort of characterization one would expect to hear from a caring, understanding, forgiving & sensitive liberal.

whether his drug use was criminal or not is no measure of his ability to think. while i personally believe opiates/opiods do very little if any organic damage, the same can't be said for the other chemicals with which they're commonly compounded (acetiminophen, for example, is some very nasty stuff). every vicodin contains at least 650mg of that crap; take 10 a day and youre ingesting 6.5 grams...do it for a month and you've downed 6.8 oz...a year later, you've subjected all your organs--including your brain--to 5+ lbs of the shit. considering 10 a day might not be enuff to qualify ya for admission into a legit methadone program--much less nearly ruin your hearing--i'm guessing he was only doin 10 a day on days when he couldnt find at least twice that many.

that kinda damage affects--as in addles--long after detox is over. he may never truly recover.

as far as the gasbag part goes, i doubt even he'd deny that.

the race-baiting started with those rallying around the accuser

no matter who started it or when, the guy was telling his audience basketball players would be given a pass in the same situation (cuz they're taller? or perhaps cuz they have bigger balls? i mean, what was the voice of responsible journalism suggesting?)

you sure you really wanna endorse that kinda crap daiwa?

I think his observation was correct and I don't "endorse that kinda crap," either. You disagree that a double standard exists in college sports? Bigtime programs sweep this kind of stuff under the rug all the time. He wasn't minimizing it. Of course, if it turns out the allegation's all a crock of shit, will you agree that the media rushed to judgment?

"no matter who started it or when, the guy was telling his audience basketball players would be given a pass in the same situation (cuz they're taller? or perhaps cuz they have bigger balls? i mean, what was the voice of responsible journalism suggesting?)"

No, and you aren't that obtuse usually. The problem is Duke makes a TON of money off basketball, and little or nothing off these kids. If you think that Duke would have shut the season down if it had been basketball you're nuts. You can imagine a major sports school shutting down their primary money-making sport because the students drank a little and hired strippers?

If the players are innocent until proven guilty, that's all we're dealing with until the verdict comes in. I have a feeling they would have been a lot more apt to wait on the verdict before taking any wallet-squeezing actions. It has nothing to do with the race of the players, it has to do with the bottome line.

You can imagine a major sports school shutting down their primary money-making sport because the students drank a little and hired strippers?

if a drunken party with strippers was the only issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion. when there are accusations of a gangrape atta party attended by most of the team, you'd prefer the school to delay taking action until there's a conviction?

there's no need to imagine an alternative. altho i don't follow college sports closely, several fairly recent incidences involving star football players being suspended in the immediate wake of rape charges come immediately to mind.

It isn't about what I would prefer, it's reality. Until someone is convicted of a crime, it seems sad to steal a whole season of what will be a very short lacrosse career. The point here is that they took such massive action because it cost them nothing to do it, the only hardship is on the players... all but three of which didn't do anything even if she is telling the 100% truth.

If it were basketball, it would have been a huge financial move for Duke. Sure, they might suspend a couple of players, but say "Nope, we're calling the season, sorry."? You don't have to analyze racial motives when there is that much money on the line.

You disagree that a double standard exists in college sports? Bigtime programs sweep this kind of stuff under the rug all the time. He wasn't minimizing it.

eric wright and herschell dennis were both booted off usc's football team last year immediately after each was accused of rape. even after charges were dropped by the state, both remained suspended prior to usc's separate investigation.

i have no problem at all with anyone advocating due process be accorded to all athletes and teams--regardlesss whether the sport is dressage or mixed martial arts. i'm having a difficult time believing you (or bakerstreet for that matter) are so naive as to believe that's what rw's radio buddy meant by singling out teams largely comprised of black players.

especially in light of this particular team's past history, duke did exactly what should have been done.

Until someone is convicted of a crime, it seems sad to steal a whole season of what will be a very short lacrosse career.

if you don't wanna screw up your relatively short moment in the sun, don't be a party to criminal activities.

btw, none of the'innocent' members of the team offered any assistance to investigators. just another case of making wrong choices if you ask me.

Of course, if it turns out the allegation's all a crock of shit, will you agree that the media rushed to judgment?

which media outlet has declared the players guilty? due to the way the media has been trumpeting defense counsel statements, someone reading only headlines or hearing only news anchor lead-ins would be far more likely to conclude just the opposite.

eric wright and herschell dennis were both booted off usc's football team last year immediately after each was accused of rape. even after charges were dropped by the state, both remained suspended prior to usc's separate investigation.

You're making Baker's point - I believe USC played a full season last year.

The point here is that they took such massive action because it cost them nothing to do it

whether done for the wrong or right reason, duke did the right thing this time and what should always be done in this sorta situation.

if duke's lacrosse team was more concerned with playing on the field than in a rented partyhouse this wouldnt have happened. furthermore, i'm guessing the reason none of those present that nite--members of the team, i mean--has willingly provided a statement is they're unable to explain why they did nothing to prevent whatever occured.

kb, come on. Very charitable of you to "guess" motives for not doing something to stop something that may not have happened. Sheesh.

And explain how come USC's football season wasn't canceled - that's the gasbag's point & baker's.

Very charitable of you to "guess" motives for not doing something to stop something that may not have happened

what other reason might there be for not one player cooperating with the investigation?

altho i've never been involved in a situation at all similar to this one, i have--on several occasions--witnessed violent criminal acts perpetrated by members of a group with whom i happened to be at the time; it didn't take me more than a moment to realize i was very likely legally culpable if i didn't intervene and almost certainly at risk of considerable physical harm if i did. without offering this as an excuse, i didn't chip in to rent the location nor to hire the victim and i had no reason to suspect things were gonna go sideways. i doubt them college boys are any dumber than i was at the time.

explain how come USC's football season wasn't canceled - that's the gasbag's point & baker's.

prolly because wright and dennis weren't accompanied by--nor being shielded by--a majority of their team members?

"what other reason might there be for not one player cooperating with the investigation? "

A tad facetious. I don't know you very well, but I think you're smart enough to know what "cooperation" with the police means. They aren't trying to rule you out, they're trying to take any detail they get and twist it against you. It will be a cold day in the nether regions when I ever, ever cooperate in an investigation wherein I am a suspect, innocent or not. When the crowds are demanding a lynching, you might find yourself hesitant to take part.

"altho i've never been involved in a situation at all similar to this one, i have--on several occasions--witnessed violent criminal acts perpetrated by members of a group with whom i happened to be at the time; it didn't take me more than a moment to realize i was very likely legally culpable if i didn't intervene and almost certainly at risk of considerable physical harm if i did."

You keep pretending that anyone witnessed anything. How do you know there was anything to witness? If there were, the other stripper had no idea what had gone on, either, so what makes you think that anyone outside the bathroom had "witnessed" anything? Once you've said you didn't, I don't see what a few hours of police grilling accomplishes other than to create fatigue-based "inconsistancies".

Your parents did yo mama

KB, really. Yo mama? That is funny. I just cant see you saying that normally.

if you don't wanna screw up your relatively short moment in the sun, don't be a party to criminal activities.

But at worst only 3 screwed up. At best none did. And if the accusations are false, how can the other 44 offer any assistance? Seriously, if these charges are false, which all indications point to at this time, 47 players got screwed because a stripper got stiffed on a tip.

It will be a cold day in the nether regions when I ever, ever cooperate in an investigation wherein I am a suspect, innocent or not.

scary tho it may seem, you've just proclaimed an essential element of the code by which i've lived my life since my early teens. for better or otherwise, i've had more than a few opportunities to demonstrate the strength of my commitment. only once, for a very quick moment while very intoxicated and engaged in the 'touch your fingertip to the tip of your nose' part of a field sobriety test, did i ever consider and dismiss the alternative.

to live outside the law, you must be honest (at least according to dylan); in this case, that means being honest--or realistic--enuff to accept the consequences of non-cooperation.

KB, really. Yo mama? That is funny. I just cant see you saying that normally

i lived in detroit til i was 23 and it's often the first response that comes to mind.

Seriously, if these charges are false, which all indications point to at this time,

even realizing how easily some grand juries issue them, an indictment is a formal legal document affirming the existence of sufficient evidence to justify a felony charge. clearly all indications do not point to a false accusation at this point.