Zen is Work

"We don't just say, "I believe!" and go on being a jerk, thinking our belief will save us. Belief of this sort is for cowards and dilitantes. Living in a world-in-wait for somebody else to make everything right. "

Nice, more self-inflated, judgmental condemnation of other people and religions. Does Buddhism espouse political and religious animosity, and contending over intellectual philosophy? If you ever meet any Buddhists, perhaps you could ask them.

I'm not sure you'll move in their circles as long as you keep picking fights, name-calling, and setting yourself up above others. You most certainly won't be able to pull off pretending to be one.


(P.S. and before you start in on the comparisons, feel free to check and see if I haven't said this exact same things to so-called Christians here at JU. But you've been here long enough to know that, you just weigh your own intolerance on different scales.)

Well Being a Christian is work as well. It demands discipline and self control as well. It's not easy. But I'm not working my way to heaven if that's what you mean. Sounds like you are. It also sounds as tho you have a deep seeded hate for Christians. Why is that? Don't you know hate doesn't come from God......or Buddah?

Christianity is not about emotion either. It's about committment. I am committed to a God who put on human flesh; who gave his life for mine. What's not to like here? Is Buddah going to save you? Or are you going to save yourself?

While I also feed those around me that are hungry and help in ways that I can to make life better for others, I do so quietly without fanfare. I don't announce it like you do.

My motivation is not for others to look at me, but only to point to the one that moves me to do these good things. Christ said when you do for others you do for me. I intend to continue to be the hands and feet of Jesus even to those that call me the enemy I will continue to fight for their soul. Because I believe it's not flesh and blood we are at war with but of spirits and principalities.

Grace & Peace

I would say it is safe to say that practicing what you preach, following your own code, staying true to yourself at all times is work. Zen doesn't have a monopoly there. All of those things you described are wonderful but you don't have to be a Zen Buddhist to do them.

I am well thank you. And I am well without feeling others are cowards or ignorant for their belief systems even though they differ from mine. You project a bit of arrogance in your writing and that doesn't convey Zen very well. You seem to need to work on some resentment issues on your path to true Zen.

Best wishes to you on your path.

I would say it is safe to say that practicing what you preach, following your own code, staying true to yourself at all times is work. Zen doesn't have a monopoly there. All of those things you described are wonderful but you don't have to be a Zen Buddhist to do them.

I agree with Jill there. Zen Buddhism has nothing on other religions, when those religions are followed, not mouthed.

This  is the first of your articles I have read, and while I read a smugness in it, I dont read a condemnation of others in it, except in perhaps some generalities that can apply to anyone, including zen Buddhists. 

I will say I liked it, and read more.  And hope you also practice the zen Buddhism ideal of inclusion as well.

"This is the first of your articles I have read, and while I read a smugness in it, I dont read a condemnation of others in it, except in perhaps some generalities that can apply to anyone, including zen Buddhists. "

It's hard for me to read the line:

"We don't just say, "I believe!" and go on being a jerk, thinking our belief will save us. Belief of this sort is for cowards and dilitantes. Living in a world-in-wait for somebody else to make everything right.

...without seeing a little condemnation of others in it. It's obviously an attack on "by faith we are saved" religions; i.e. his usual anti-Christianity garbage. If his pacifism is on par with the rest of his Buddhist virtues, you'd better duck if you make him mad.

Hello All,

Each of you have made very valid points. Thank you. Let me ask you to please be a bit more careful, though, as I feel you are reading too much between the lines. For example, The highlighted snip Bakerstreet used where I "condemn" those who talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, is not about Christians, per se, but about any of us. I have said the same thing in Dharma talks at my Temple. This sort of hypocracy however, does seem to lend itself easily to Christian fundementalists as they seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) the major moralists in America, yet seem to have great difficulty applying their values universally.

Dr. Guy, it is very true that Zen Buddhists do not have a corner on the market. However, I am a Zen Buddhist monk and I am speaking on behalf of Zen Buddhist practice and sociology.

KFC. I do not hate. Period. I have serious concerns about how fundementalist have distorted Christianity. Where does this come from you ask? Experience of living several decades in the Bible belt. Being told that I'm going to hell for being a Jew, now a Buddhist. Being told I was abusing my son because I did not "buy" Christmas for him. Being told as a liberal I am a traitor. Being told that I am a satan worshiper, an idol worshiper and all manner of other vile untruths. Being told that somehow it should be allowed that schools offer prays, of course in the Christian tradition to the Christian God. Being told that this is a Christian country, in spite of the fact that millions on non-Christians live here, have fought for this country, even founded this country. Yes, I guess there is a problem. I doubt it is mine. If I breath and stretch my own wings, you call me arrogant. Hmmm.

I believe all people have the right and obligation to pray as they wish. To find their own spiritual path. I will resist Christian attempts to see this as their sole domain. I believe in people and their liberty and freedom. I will resist any effort curtail these. I believe in the Constitution of the United States. I will resist Christian Right's attempts to change how it is interpreted. I support the United Nations and their tireless work to help make this a better planet and will resist isolationist thinking.

Here's the thing: I don't judge people. I judge and attempt to correct their behavior. That's what I do. Of course not all Christians are fundamenbtalists, not all are short sighted and narrow. But some are and those few have very loud voices and are developing serious political clout. That is not acceptable to me and I will resist it.

I hope this helps to clarify some things.

Be well.

So, I don't know. Maybe its a futile thing. Maybe I should return to my mountain monastery and forget about the world. But I just can't bring myself to do that. There is much iomportant woirk to be done.

To each of you. I am sorry if we have gotten off on the wrong foot. Can you at least see that liberals and non-Christians have been taking it on the cheek for a long time? All I ask is that we respect each other.

You do not admit to hate, but a lot bleeds through, and even more when you lose your temper. As I have said elsewhere, I wouldn't have a problem with your ideals, but when you lecture us from a Buddhist position one would expect you to be at least slightly Buddhist.

I have serious concerns about how fundementalist have distorted Christianity.

I would really like to know more specifics here. I consider myself a "fundamentalist" only in that I go back to the early church and believe in the fundamentals getting rid of the trappings that the modern churchs have undertaken.

Being told that I'm going to hell for being a Jew, now a Buddhist

You would dislike me and call me names because I hold to the truth that there is no other entrance to heaven but through christ? When I'm pushed to the point of answering the question "Do you believe the Jews or Buddhists that didn't accept Christ are going to Hell?" I answer them honestly that "My own dear children are going to hell without Christ." Because I believe that there is no other way. He is the King and it's his kingdom.

If I knew you were about to put alot of money into a stock that I knew for sure was bad and going south should I say anything to you? Or should I keep my mouth shut? Is it love by not telling you for fear you may get angry at me? Should I keep the peace at any cost?

No. Love is telling you even if it's not pleasant to hear. I tell people the way to heaven not because I'm hateful but because I care about people and I know the way. Yes, I do believe that one CAN KNOW this.

To each of you. I am sorry if we have gotten off on the wrong foot. Can you at least see that liberals and non-Christians have been taking it on the cheek for a long time? All I ask is that we respect each other.

I accept this apology. But I can't see what you see here. No it's the Christians who feel they are being harrassed and being stripped of their rights day by day. Can you accept that?

But we can agree to disagree, and in the end I believe we all will find the answers to why we were put on this earth to begin with.

Grace & Peace

I don't see any difference between a Christian stating their belief that other religions are going to hell, and you constantly panning other religions... oh, other than Buddhism doesn't espouse the practice and Christianity does.

So who is the bigger hypocrite? The people whose religion promotes the ideas they espouse, or the person whose religion asks its adherants to live peacefully, without animosity or conflict, and yet behaves in much the same way as the Christians they condemn?

With palms together,

Hello Bakerstreet, Thank you for your replies. I believe I have attempted to reach out to you, explain my position, admit my errors. You seem unwilling to accept this effort and insist on suggesting I am a hypocrite and self-righteous. So be it. May you live a long and prosperous life.

KFC, I see your point of view. I have always understood Christianty's point of view. Its hard to mistake. What I seek is a Christian's willingness to see mine as equally valid. Truth is a funny thing. Very subjective. My sense is that there are some things, however, that we can agree on. At least I would hope so: that charity is a good thing. That living for the sake of others is a good thing. That forgiveness is essential. That compassion is one of the highest goods.

Be well.

With palms together, Hello KFC, I do not dislike you, I do resent your belief. Quite natural, don't you think, considering the point of view you hold? I understand Christians feel threatened in a secular world. What rights have Christians been stripped of? As I see it, you can still not open your business on a Sunday, you can still pray whenever you wish, wherever you wish...you just can't force others to do so. You can put out Christmas decorations, though not at taxpayer's expense. You can not have an abortion. You can not enjoy sex out of wedlock. No one is stopping you from being the best Christian you can be. What some are saying, myself included, is your rights stop at my door. Idf I have a Jewish child in a public school, I don't want him or her subjected to your religion as a matter of sate sanction. If I have a daughter who is pregant and she does not wish to carry that fetus to term, I believe it is her right to abort it. If I choose to open my business on a Sunday, not the Sabbath (which is Saturday) I should be free to do so. Unfortunately, Christians have for decades enacted laws founded on their beliefs infringing on mine. So, just how is a Christian being discriminated against?

Be well.

Dear Sodaiho,
Actually the Christian belief that all those who do not accept Christ will go to hell is a major part of their faith - particularly for those of a fundamentalist persuasion. As I do not accept this doctrine, I am I suppose by definition one of those destined for the great fiery pit. And yet, after a little consideration, I do not think that this doctrine or belief is quite as offensive as it seems to you.

First of all the biblical verses that claim that Jesus "is the way, the truth and life" and that "no-one comes to the Father except through [him]" are remarkably vague. Nowhere in the christian scripture does it actually say that you have to 'get down on your knees and say aloud the little prayer at the end of this pamphlet accepting Jesus into your heart', although that will almost certainly be the interpretation put on the scripture by the fundamentalist missioner who has just shoved the leaflet into your sweaty palm as you were leaving the shopping mall. Who really knows just what is meant by 'the way'; perhaps an attempt to practice zazen daily in an effort to be more christ-like will actually be acceptable at the great final interview at the pearly gates and it is in that sense that he "is the way". That of course is not how the fundamentalist sees it, but maybe, come the day, they'll just have to suck it up, like the prodigal son's resentful older brother, when the Almighty issues you with your free pass to eternity, despite your 'idol worship' and not 'buying christmas'.

But even if this get out clause is rejected on appeal at the bar of heaven and the fundies are right, I am reminded of the importance of intention in dharma teaching: even a 'bad' act, if carried out with a noble intention, accrues good karma, whereas even a beneficial act, if carried out with an evil intention accrues bad karma. So KFC is right in this sense: if when he says, "Love is telling you even if it's not pleasant to hear", he sincerely means this and love is his intention, how can it be anything other than a karmically meritorious action? On the other hand, if someone with a weak and immature spirituality tells you you are going to go to hell because s/he is a spiteful hateful person who gets her/his jollies from a kind of spiritual sadism, well, "Whatever karma I create, whether good or evil, that I shall inherit."
The Buddha, Anguttara Nikaya V.57 - Upajjhatthana Sutta

Many people in the west turn to dharma teaching because of resentment felt towards christianity. This is almost always a great mistake. For a long time, christian beliefs made no sense to me at all. Dharma teaching actually taught me to see the beauty and mystery in the christian message, even while showing me that christianity is not the path for me.

To you with palms pressed together - or as we say in the Korean tradition 'hapjeong'

I do not dislike you, I do resent your belief

well then what do you call it? I still would like to know why the resentment?

What rights have Christians been stripped of?

I've seen a big difference in the way this country thinks of God in the last 25 years. When I was a child we could sing God Bless America and When the Saints come Marching In. Going back further to my mom and grandmother they had bible readings in school and hymns. Before that, every child learned how to read and write, math and all from the bible, usually the only book in the home.

My children's music teacher starting when they hit the late grade school could no longer play Silent Night at Christmas. The previous Christmas songs had to be replaced with all secular seasonal ones. All across the country kids are being asked to turn their t-shirts inside out because they may have a cross or other non PC message on there. Some are asked to take off their crosses around their necks....separation of church and state. One mom called on a radio show very upset because her kindergartener brought in a bible story to share for reading and was told it couldn't be read because it was "bad." Yet it's ok to read about witches and "Heather has two Mommies."

This has become so prevalent there are lawyers out there fighting just for our Christian rights exclusively to combat all this. They have plenty of calls all across the country.

I think the downward spiral in society has alot to do with these changes. Absolutely. There is no God, there is no accountability therefore, live, drink and be happy and screw whomever....it's all about me anyhow. We don't have to answer to anyone. We have turned from a God centered society to a me centered and look where we are. Coincidence? I don't think so.

In Canada, one Pastor was in trouble because he preached against Homosexuality. There was a law being enacted(not sure how it turned out)that would prohibit Pastors from reading certain passages on the bible that would be considered "hate" speech. Jail time and hefty fines would be doled out.

I think it was in Sweden where this was a reality. A Pastor was jailed because he dared preach that homosexuality was a sin. He was jailed and the fines were given to the homosexuality cause. I think his name was Green. Check it out.

A friend of mine here cannot read her bible on her lunchtime at work. She is not allowed to have even a small bible on her desk at any time. We are not allowed to pray in school. Coaches are being fired all the time because they dared to pray with their players...even if the players are ok with it.

One coach in NJ quit after many years of coaching because he was told not to pray. He never coerced anyone and his players fought to get him reinstated.

I saw a woman in my state who had to give up her group home for mentally challenged adults because she wouldn't allow them to have sex or porn in their rooms. They all had the mental capacity of 7 year olds. The parents of these grown child adults fought for her as well. It was ok with them, as their guardians but the state said no. So they can have sex, have porn, but don't talk to them about Jesus. Does this make sense to you?

Don't get me started.

is the way, the truth and life" and that "no-one comes to the Father except through [him]" are remarkably vague

how so? He also said he was the way, and the door. If you knew the story behind this you'd understand it completely.

Nowhere in the christian scripture does it actually say that you have to 'get down on your knees and say aloud the little prayer at the end of this pamphlet accepting Jesus into your heart',

This is true. I agree. It's got to be God motivated to begin with anyhow.

On the other hand, if someone with a weak and immature spirituality tells you you are going to go to hell because s/he is a spiteful hateful person who gets her/his jollies from a kind of spiritual sadism

just like you have to grow physically you need to grow spiritually as well. We all start out as baby christians, crawling, stumbling, shaky legs and then we grow into fully functional adults walking and running. We make mistakes as we grow. When I was younger I was much more blunt about the "hell" talk not giving much thought to their backgrounds and feelings. I've learned alot and know now that I can't force any to make a decision. I used to put it all on my shoulders. All I can do is spread the seed. It's up to God to send another to water and bring about the fruit. If one doesn't want to hear then I don't say another word to them. I'm done. I don't get mad or angry either. It's either not time for them to hear or will never be the time.

Many people in the west turn to dharma teaching because of resentment felt towards christianity.

Nothing gets at me more than a Christian who is not representing Christ in the way he should be. Even if it's me from time to time. I'm human and I do recognize and think on things later. Did I help or hurt Christ when I behaved in such a way?

Truth is a funny thing. Very subjective

I totally disagree here. The definition of truth is it's the same for anyone at anytime at any place. Truth never changes. 1+1=2...always. Murder is wrong for all people at all times and in every culture. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Never changes.

A simple way to illustrate:

Three baseball umpires debating the diffence in their philosophies.

1st Umpire: "There's balls and there's strikes and I call them as they are."

2nd Umpire: "No that's arrogant. There's balls and strikes and I call them the way I see it."

3rd Umpire: "No better, why beat around the bush? Let's be realistic about what we do? There's balls and strikes and they are nothing until I call them."

The first represents the traditional view of truth; objective, independent of the mind and there to be discovered. This is where I would fall in. I believe truth is objective.

The second speaks of moderate relativism, 'truth as each on sees it' according to his perspective or interpretation.

The third expresses radical relativism, 'truth is not there to be discovered' but to be created by each of us ourselves.

When Pilate was washing his hands of Jesus he asked..."What is truth?" Truth was standing right in front of him.

Nice, more self-inflated, judgmental condemnation of other people and religions. Does Buddhism espouse political and religious animosity, and contending over intellectual philosophy? If you ever meet any Buddhists, perhaps you could ask them. I'm not sure you'll move in their circles as long as you keep picking fights, name-calling, and setting yourself up above others. You most certainly won't be able to pull off pretending to be one.

I thought it was just me, Baker. Thanks.

KFC, I see your point of view. I have always understood Christianty's point of view. Its hard to mistake. What I seek is a Christian's willingness to see mine as equally valid.

Just re-read this and it immediately raised a question in my mind: why? Why should you seek a Christian's willingness to see your faith as equally valid? First of all, a fundamentalist born-again christian is unable to do this as a matter of conscience. They believe what they believe, there's no changing that. So much of the religious trouble in this world seems to flow from this need for external validation. Better I think to have a quiet confidence in your own beliefs, continually confirmed by the benefits of practice than seek such validation.

On this subject KFC writes:

If one doesn't want to hear then I don't say another word to them. I'm done. I don't get mad or angry either.

which of course raises the question of why should anyone get mad or angry about this ("why won't you accept my religion you little shit!" )

When we cease to try fuelling our faith by desperately trying to get as many people as possible to agree with us, so many problems will disappear. There is a way of sharing faith: it's to be the peace, wisdom and compassion in the world that we would like to see. Leaflets, haranguing and threats of fire and brimstone are missing the point.

hapjeong

First of all, a fundamentalist born-again christian is unable to do this as a matter of conscience. They believe what they believe, there's no changing that. So much of the religious trouble in this world seems to flow from this need for external validation. Better I think to have a quiet confidence in your own beliefs, continually confirmed by the benefits of practice than seek such validation.

this is exactly right. Well said. I don't need external validation. My validation comes from God.

My desire is for one to be introduced to Christ. That's what I can help with. But if they have no desire to meet him. Oh well, it's their loss.

When we cease to try fuelling our faith by desperately trying to get as many people as possible to agree with us, so many problems will disappear

this is true.

Everyone wishes to believe in something that in the end will be proven true. I just believe that Jesus is God's son and can be proven by biblical prophecy, his life and miracles, the changed lives not only in scripture but mine as well as others I've met along the way, and by his resurrection from the dead. No other religion or religious leader gives such proof.

In Canada, one Pastor was in trouble because he preached against Homosexuality.

On this issue I have to say that I fully support the right of Christians to honestly express their religious beliefs. On this issue there seems to be a consensus amongst most (but not all) christian denomination that homosexuality is 'wrong' and there is 'reasoning' of a sort behind this stance. As it happens I reject this notion, finding it ultimately irrational, but I acknowledge that there is a reasoning here that is not (always) simply a matter of blind bigotry.

However, where you are short-sighted and, I have to say a little insensitive is in failing to see the other side of the equation. Most respectable christian denominations have some kind of notion of 'hating the sin and not the sinner' and make this important distinction. Orthodox christians also realise that most sexual 'sins' are fairly mild compared to the true transgressions which are spiritual rather than physical in nature (pride, self-righteousness, lack of charity etc). Nevertheless the kind of person who walks around with a "God hates fags" placard is not making that kind of subtle distinction and is involved in hate speech under the guise of religion. And this kind of activity has real consequences in the real world, where people are stigmatised, made truly miserable, beaten up and occasionally killed.

You seem to focus so strongly on the notion of your religious 'rights' being under attack, that you cannot see why your opponents' passions are aroused. While some of the people who oppose you do so because they hate your religion, period, for many others it springs from a healthy sense of self-preservation and justifiable fear.

For me a more 'christian' view would involve understanding this, and appreciating that your religious rights are no more, nor less important than the rights of others to live without the fear of having their heads smashed in by baseball bats. Thoughts, words, actions have consequences. We rarely give enough consideration to these things before acting and speaking.

Dear KFC and Chakgogka, Thank you. This dialogue is very instructive and skillfull. Without polemic and words that incite, we are able to more easily and clearly see what is before us. I see my words have been unskillfull. KFC, in answer to your question, "Why?" I think each of us wishes to be understood and respected. My feeling is that my oint of view and faith system is often disrespected by others. I see my defensiveness about this and sensitivity to it can be fuel for the fire itself, however. Thank you for having both the patience and the love for hanging in there with me through this disasterous discussion. A deep bow to you both.

Chak,

No sure if you think I'm a baseball weilding Christian or not...but just in case. No, I'm not. I'm not anything like that so called Pastor and his group that hold up "God hates fags" signs. I think that's awful.

I believe sin is sin, wether it's sexual, spiritual or physical. When John the Baptist announced Christ he said...."Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

Notice the word "sin" is singular not plural. It's about the sin nature not the individual sins. I don't get caught up in the individual sin. It's just indicative of the spiritual health of the owner. It's external evidence of what's going on inside.

You seem to focus so strongly on the notion of your religious 'rights' being under attack, that you cannot see why your opponents' passions are aroused.

Actually this isn't quite right here. I know where this is coming from and it's not physical. I'm very cognizant of the spiritual. My enemy is not you,the Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, etc. It's Satan. I believe we are empowered by one or the other. Simple as that.

Thank you for having both the patience and the love for hanging in there with me through this disasterous discussion. A deep bow to you both.

and to you as well. Discussion is good.

No sure if you think I'm a baseball weilding Christian or not

It's quite clear to me that you are not. Although I disagree with your argument I can see that it is thoughtful and principled.

Thank you for having both the patience and the love for hanging in there with me through this disasterous discussion.

Not so disastrous. Just "fall down seven times and get up eight"