911 tapes: gasoline on a smoldering fire

from JoeUser Forums
With palms together,
Hello all,

Today those dreadful tapes were released. Calls to 911 from those about to die. One wonders what value these tapes for public consumption? Private calls, terrified people. Like roadside accidents, we are drawn to them. Like the hysterical Fox News Department, we watch them. They incite us, get our heart beating, fill us with anger, rage, and a desire to strike out. There is a reason we Buddhists take a vow not to consume intoxicants, things that cloud our minds and poison us. This is just the reason.

I ask you each not to listen. We know these people died. Years ago. No need to revisit the wound, scratch it open and make it bleed again.

Be at peace today. Honor those who died with a offering of peace, love, and compassion. As we all know, the world could use it.

Be well.
religion
2,974 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
You know I agree with your sentiment here. It's too late for me though cause I already listened to it when I was watching the news this morning and it did exactly that, brought me to tears and back to that terrible morning, all the emotions came rushing back. I don't know how this helps those family, perhaps it does, I can't say anything about that, but all it did was brought back all that pain.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
ForeverSerenity, what a wonderful choice for a user name. Thank you for your comment. It is good not to forget things that have hurt us, but it is not necessary to re-open wounds to honor the past. May you be a blessing to someone today.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I read that the families were the ones who decided how the tapes would be used. It was therefore the families' decision to make them public. Perhaps they don't want the rest of us to be able to just move on because they haven't been able to.

Many of us will always remember without reminder but many won't. Many people just go on and let it fade away. Also, 9/11 has been used and misconstrued in many political ways. I think maybe the families want to just bring back the reality of that event. Pain can be a useful tool. Some people need a reminder to be thankful for what we have and that it could be taken away at any moment.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Odd, I saw this on CBS. I'm wondering what this has to do with Fox News. You're quite politically judgmental for someone who claims to be so 'zen'. I see sheep's clothing, but I don't smell sheep.

I challenge you to listen, revisit the wound, scratch it open and bleed. Be angry. Be hateful. Living as you propose is living as half a person. Peace, love, compassion are all attachments that get your heart beating, and fill you with desire. I find it sad that this syrupy, Disney-style Buddhism of 'love' has gotten to be so prevalent.

Be in turmoil today, hate those that hate you and embrace your humanity.

OR

Otherwise, be what you claim to be, reject both violence and peace, compassion and hate, and truly find detachment. Blinding yourself to one and not the other isn't enlightenment, it's just delusion.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
With palms together,

Hello JillUser and Bakerstreet. Yes, I am sure reminders are useful. My hope is that reminders would be used to help us avoid killing and the anger that provokes it. With respect, Bakerstreet, you certainly have an edge. Fox News is an organization built purely on ratings seeking sensationalism. My point was that tapes such as these appeal to such things, regardless of who puts them out. You are right, I suppose, in some sense. There was a time when I killed human beings for a living. I was a pretty rude and crude person and let me say you really would not want to be in my sights. As a result of that life and many years in therapy and as a therapist, I have found there are better ways of dealing with toxic feelings. Killing is pointless. It simply provokes more of the same. I may not have eradicated my own edge, if you will, but at least I am on the path. I will continue to point out the hypocracy of the conservative Christian right. They are the assholes that start wars, who then withdraw funding from Veterans Programs, who argue against abortion while cutting social services and fighting all over themselves to spend more money on prisons and executions. I make no apologies for being a liberal. None. I think its about time some of us "softies" got up and figuratively slapped you candt assed right winger punks in the face. Now, go practice your crap or whatever you do to seeth in poison. And when youre done fimnd a quiet place and visit your heart . It just may have something of value to say to you. Oh, be well.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mellow Greetings:

" Fox News is an organization built purely on ratings seeking sensationalism."


And I'm sure that all the other networks are charitable enterprises...

"I will continue to point out the hypocracy of the conservative Christian right. They are the assholes that start wars, who then withdraw funding from Veterans Programs, who argue against abortion while cutting social services and fighting all over themselves to spend more money on prisons and executions. I make no apologies for being a liberal. None. I think its about time some of us "softies" got up and figuratively slapped you candt assed right winger punks in the face. Now, go practice your crap or whatever you do to seeth in poison. And when youre done fimnd a quiet place and visit your heart . It just may have something of value to say to you. Oh, be well."


LMAO... 'nuff said. Well there's a little something in there still alive, anyway.

Pardon my acidity. Nothing annoys me more than people who preach pacifism, detachment, lack of craving, and then seek to combat what they see as "wrong". In the end you are just putting your own little steaming pile of dukkha on a world that, if you really become what you want, you couldn't care less about.

That translates to someone who takes it upon themselves to champion 'truth', but accepts zero responsibility when the check comes. It's like taking a vegetarian to a steak house to pick out your steak for you. You'll pardon me if I devalue the opinion of someone who refuses to protect, but at the same time has a keen craving to impose their opinion about defense and crime.

When your flavor of buddhism offers more than way to embrace victimization with a clear concience, I'll be more apt to listen. Society can support a reasonable number of people with your ideals, so there's really no harm done, unless we allow you to effect change. Allowing you to do that, is like letting someone take your car apart after they've told you up front that they have no idea how to put it back together.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
With palms together,

Bakerstreet, which part of responsibility should I take? I gave the use of my left side to the people of Vietnam in 1966 in the Army. I am currently dealing with the long term effects of having a bullet go through my brain. and am 100% disabled by the VA and social security. I gave 25 years of service to assisting disabled combat vets and other trauma survivors as a shrink. I sit in silent protest once a week at the Federal Building in my hometown. I work a day a week in the homeless shelter's soup kitchen. I offer religious services twice a week to those interested in practicing Zazen. You?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh, lastly, Virtual Sherlock, in a pissing contest on putting my actual ass on the line for my values I will win any day of your week. See ya!
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top


can't make up my mind!!!
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I appreciate those things you do, and you no doubt do much more than I do. I couldn't commend you more for them. When you start sniping politically under cover of zen, though, accept that you have entered into striving and animosity, and don't just try and smooth it over by putting "be well" at the end.

That's what I am talking about above, and you refuse to see it. Ask anyone who knows me if I have a problem with "liberal" opinions. Most of the links on my blog are to people of such a bent. What I don't care for, though, are people who fence from an untouchable position. You have been called on it, and you can barely restrain yourself enough to type.

So, if you want to deal with me, and others here, as a human being to another human being, fine. You took my comment about your 'palms' stuff on the other blog to be me just being 'irked', but it wasn't. It is about you injecting your religious philosophy into the conversations as a tactic, instead of relying on the merits of your opinions.

Such leaves you sounding like the untouchable teacher, and it is just sad. Worse, you expect it to be a shield, evidently. Listen, from me to the disabled veteran who spends his time helping people, God bless you. From me to the person who differs with me, but passionately believes he knows what is best for the world, God bless you doubly, you do your best to change it no matter what I say.

Don't for a moment, though, try spar from behind monastary walls, though, because it shows a lack of respect toward your opponents, and for your own beliefs. To reject conflict out of one side of your mouth, and then invite it by putting us "candy assed right winger punks" in our place isn't doing you or anyone else any good.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

I mean no disrespect, Sodaiho, but I'm starting to find you very anti-Christian.  It would seem to me that rather than embracing your personality, working through the parts you don't like and then letting them die a natural death, you are simply trying to shut them out, to ignore them in the hope that if you do so for long enough they will go away. 

It doesn't work like that.  When you garden, do the weeds go away if you ignore them?  No, they don't.  As with the weeds, so with yourself.

I used to practice Buddhism.  I used to try and remain neutral to EVERYTHING, to not get angry or be upset.  It didn't work for me.  It might work in a monastery on a hill, cut off from the outside world, but in the REAL world - it simply doesn't work.  So, I decided to embrace my humanity, to try and understand WHY I reacted the way I did...and I found that I had MUCH more control over myself when I did so.  I understood myself, you see.  I know who I am and what I'm about. I still sit in the mornings to center myself.  I still think that Buddhism is a wonderful philosophy and I find great comfort in its teachings, but I'm also open to other faiths - Christianity is one of them.

Acknowledge yourself.  Embrace yourself, flaws and all.  Understand yourself.  Come to terms with yourself.  Perhaps then you will truly find Buddha-mind.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello All,

A bit of a rant here.

All of you are very correct. I have a ton of flaws. Lots of them. I was not the one who said I was flawless. Or without judement. We all make judgements, all of us. And the point is? Some of us know we have flaws, some of work on our flaws. Others believe they are flawless, saved by their belief in a fairytale god. I am anti-Christian as Christianity has been morphed by evengelical bigots. Very few Christians seem willing to stand up for the Jesus of the gospels. Instead they are hell bent on pointing out the faults of everyone un-Christtian in the universe. Just today, for example, I read a story in a local paper by a professed Christian suggesting it was impossible for a Muslim to be a patritic American. Where is trhe Christian outrage at such nonsense? It takes a non-Chriustian to become so incensed that he risks the aprbation of others by pointing out the faults of this group? While I have met some Christians who walk the walk, they are a real rarity in this world, in my opinion. And I have spent most of my life in the so-called Bible belt.

And how did we get onto this? The flames here came from an initial post of mine suggesting religion wasn't of much value. I was not attacking Christianity there. But the religiocentric among you assumed that was the case. I was talking about formal systems of doctrine that act as obsticles to actual practice. As a priest, I believe I have a legitimate point of view. But everyone here seems so caught up in their own shit to see the point.

Major Math attacks, Bakerstreet attacks. Ho Hum. Does anyone ask a question about my point of view? No. Does anyone ask what a Zen Buddhist is obliged to do or say, not do or say? No. Instead, you point out what you think are my inadequecies are as a Buddhist not having the foggiest idea what that means in the first place. You are a self righteous lot and deserve the words I toss at you.

Zen Buddhism is not about fluff and good feeling. That's for people who live on clouds and have sugar plum fairies for friends. Zen is about being straight. Being awake. Being here now. Not some stupid idea about what here should be. I know priests who are as stiff as boards and as unbending as desert weeds. Quick to smack you when you are in error. If people are asleep they should be whacked on the shoulders and told to wake up. If they are unkind hypocrites, Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Buddhist, they should be corrected. I have never said I was kind or sympathetic. I do say we should develop compassion. But Bakerstreet thought this was this was mindless crap . The compassion I work on is real world compassion that requires a wake up call on occasion. As a priest it is my duty to assist in this waking up.

So get rid of your suppositions and assumptions. Read or delete my posts. Ask questions if you want clarification.

As to the conservatives Republican types who have their noses out of joint. Goodness. Have you ever listened to yourselves? You are like a pack of wounded children. Since a Republican president came intro office, and a Repubilan House and Senate are in power, we are in incredable debt, a hopeless war, angered most of the world, and seem completely baffled as to why million of people actually hate the United States. Terrified that somebody will take your toys away from you or, heaven forbid, require you to share, you close ranks, withdraw and want to call everyone else unpatriotic.. Family values? Hah! That's a laugh, unless family values include war, the death penalty, corruption, lying, cheating and stealing and a complete unwillingness to accept a different point of view. Viscious, sniveling people, the lot of you. Pick up any column by Ann Coulter, listen to Rush, or Michael Savage: No shortage of nastiness on your side.

You think anger as I feel comes from nowhere? Hardly. I have been a patriotic American all of my life. A disabled vet, high school drop out who went on to get a Ph.D., a good father, and a hardworking citizen who has given a lot back. Then, along comes a group of people and suddenly I am a traitor because I am a liberal? I am unreligious because I am not a member of the First Baptist Church? I am unAmerican because I believe we shouild not promote sanctioned prayer in schools? Because I believe in the privacy of women and their right to control their own bodies? Oh boy. You've got a lot of nerve.

Well, enough of a rant. I will now try my best to not do that anymore. And Bakerstreet, please, get a sense of humor.

Be well. (I mean that!)
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello Dharmagirl,

Thank you for your kindness. I sometimes do struggle with Christians. But not in a vacuum. I am nnot a Christian and never have been. I don't live in a white bread world. Yet, without opening my mouth I have been attacked and vilified by thesew people. At some point, one must refuse to accept it. As to my atitude, I am working on it. Have been. And I really do get along with most everyone I come into contact with, believe it or not

But, I have taken vows to stop evil. There are conservative rightwing, Christians out there who are hurtful, spiteful, and downright viscious.They burn books. Thjey humiliate people in public. They would take away a woman's right to control her body, kill people in a gas chamber, cut social services programs, spew all sorts of hate about different peoples and different religions, and yet get quite shocked when you call them on it. Silence in the presence of such people is cowardly.

How is it that when we stand up against their hate, we are considered arrogant?

Be well.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am anti-Christian as Christianity has been morphed by evengelical bigots.


well at least you admit it. I actually can respect that you are forthright in your opinion.

I am a Christian. I do not agree with your assesment of all christians. I have met so-called Christians you described but I have yet in all my years met a true Christian acting in the manners you describe.

As a priest, I believe I have a legitimate point of view. But everyone here seems so caught up in their own shit to see the point.


hmmmm you certainly don't talk like any priest I've ever met. In my belief system we say "do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth."

But, I have taken vows to stop evil.


but you do spread it by your words.

There are conservative rightwing, Christians out there who are hurtful, spiteful, and downright viscious.They burn books. Thjey humiliate people in public.


oh, and this is limited to the.....Christians? Really? You really are anti-Christian. Can I ask why?

And you are/have never been hurtful, spiteful and/or viscious ever? You've never humilated a person ever?
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
lol, I think it is funny that you claim I am ignorant of Buddhism. How do you know that? I've pointed out several times how you aren't keeping to Buddhist teachings.

I don't give a damn what you believe as one human to another. Buth when you put your palms together and speak from a Buddhist perspective expect people to call you on it when you depart from Buddhist teachings. You're a judgemental moralist who harshly judges other people's beliefs while asserting that yours are superior.

Feel free to point out where that behavior is taught in Buddist thought.