Let me see your Proof of Residency before I help you, Amigo.

I am somewhat divided about this immigration reform. I understand the government's economic concerns about illegal immigrants and their concern for national security. I do believe that immigrants who want to live here should do what they need to do to stay here legally. But I also believe that they come up here for opportunity and a better life, just like many of our ancestors did...and they work their asses off here in laborious jobs that many Americans turn their noses up to (but I'm not going farther...that is another stance and not the point of this article).

Actually, my main beef with this immigration reform deals with them dragging the church into this. The following is part of an article the Christian Science monitor published (by Daniel B. Wood)

***"America's faith communities are keeping careful watch as Congress wrangles over border security - a process expected to yield the most dramatic changes in immigration policy since the 1980s - and many religious leaders are not liking what they see so far.

Increasingly, they are making their presence felt on Capitol Hill, where the Senate is now drafting its version of immigration reform. In their own churches, synagogues, and mosques, many leaders are striking a defiant pose toward an immigration bill the US House has already approved.

At stake is the moral high ground on immigration. The religious leaders see new border-tightening moves as intruding on their obligation to care for strangers - no questions asked. Those who argue the other side, that immigration must be curtailed and the border secured, also couch their position in moral terms, saying it is unprincipled to aid and abet those who have entered the US illegally.

A key sticking point: part of the House measure that would force any individual, including church workers, to see documentation before giving help to immigrants, or risk imprisonment.

"It is none of the government's business who and how religious people serve," says Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy, president of Interfaith Alliance, which represents 70 faith traditions. "Would the US Congress have told the Good Samaritan not to help a stranger in the ditch?"***

hmmm....I thought Church was supposed to be separated from state...or am I missing something here.

3,393 views 20 replies
Reply #1 Top
I have to agree with Daniel Wood.  CHurches are not granting asylum to the aliens, not employing them or providing work for them.  They are just feeding, clothing and sometimes providing shelter.  And you are right, that should not be crimilized.  I hope they strike that from the bill as I see it as a direct attack on the confidentiallity of the Confessional.
Reply #2 Top
DrG
I have to agree with Daniel Wood. CHurches are not granting asylum to the aliens, not employing them or providing work for them. They are just feeding, clothing and sometimes providing shelter. And you are right, that should not be crimilized. I hope they strike that from the bill as I see it as a direct attack on the confidentiallity of the Confessional.


I just think they have no business telling a church what to do.
Reply #3 Top
I just think they have no business telling a church what to do.


Would you feel the same way if a church was giving shelter and food to a mass murderer? Now I'm not saying that immigrants are violent criminals--but they are breaking the law. And yes, while there should be separation of Church and State the Church should not knowingly aid people who are trying to fly under the radar.

I'm torn on the immigration issue in general, but I have no problem telling Churches that they will face prosecution if they help illegals--separation of Church and State does not mean that the Church is above the law.
Reply #4 Top
I agree with DR.... and add, as much as I am cognizant and appreciative of the value and most motives behind Mexican illegal immigrants coming to into the USA, we still need to put a stop to it.

Here in SoCA, and AZ they're draining our infrastructure resources, which derogatorily affects not only our own people, but those that respect the process and immigrate legally. Plus, the majority of the monies earned by Mexican illegal's is not taxed, and sent back to Mexico and spent there.
Reply #5 Top

Would you feel the same way if a church was giving shelter and food to a mass murderer? Now I'm not saying that immigrants are violent criminals--but they are breaking the law. And yes, while there should be separation of Church and State the Church should not knowingly aid people who are trying to fly under the radar.

Knowingly?  That is the rub.  They dont know these people are criminals, just people in need.  And yes, if a mass murderer came to them for help, do you think they would run a background check before providing it?  That is what you are saying, that they must run a background check before helping them.  They are a charity, not an employer or law enforcement agency, and should not be forced to become either.

Reply #6 Top
People's lives are more important than their immigration status. The church can and will continue to feed people. It should not matter who that person is or where they are from. The church can't report these people, or they won't come, and then they won't get fed and will die. It's more important to keep people alive than it is to control the border that way. Try something else, Congress.
Reply #7 Top
look here now, my mother and father came to america, legally, they waited their turn AND then arrived. They did NOT demand the entire country learn Turkish, they learned english, they became citizens, they worked hard and provided for their kids.

I Have no mercy at all for criminals and ANYONE sneaking across the border is breaking the law. WE should not be rewarding ILLEGALS for sneaking here, send them back home.
Reply #8 Top
I Have no mercy at all for criminals and ANYONE sneaking across the border is breaking the law. WE should not be rewarding ILLEGALS for sneaking here, send them back home.


Do you really think that we can just round up 11 million people and send them back to Mexico or put them in jail? These people cook your meals, clean your hotel rooms, care for your children etc. The problem is that American business is addicted to their cheap labor. If the jobs weren't here, they wouldn't come. Though, I do have to agree with you ModMan, that they should try harder to assimilate, learn the language and become a part of this countryt.

I know this is not your point in this article, Inbloom but I had to say it. They are not evil, criminal people. They are hard workers who are looking to build a better life for their families. They risk their lives to come here. As border patrol has increased more immigrants are dying in the dessert, smugglers are making big bucks to get them here which leads to tragic results such as the death of all those people in the back of that semi truck a year or so ago.

The house bill is much too harsh. Hopefully the senate will be able to come up with a more feasible plan. I think the idea of letting them apply for permanent residence after paying a fine is a great one. Let them pay taxes and support the country they are living and working in. Also the economic situation of Mexico has to be addressed. If there aren't jobs and opportunities there, there will not be any stopping them from coming here.

Definately, I think it is ridiculous to punish people for helping anyone. Here is a link to check out for anyone who is interested. It is the justice for immigrants site by the Catholic Church.

Link

Reply #9 Top
#8 by Locamama
Monday, March 27, 2006


Do you really think that we can just round up 11 million people and send them back to Mexico or put them in jail?


I guess I should have been more clear, it's the criminals I want sent back home.
Reply #10 Top
And yes, while there should be separation of Church and State the Church should not knowingly aid people who are trying to fly under the radar.


I disagree, shades. Confidentiality is an important part of the job of clergy. While I would personally see it as my duty to advise someone to do things properly, I would refuse to turn them in to the government. And I would refuse to deny them aid.

When I am acting as a minister, I am acting as an emissary of God, not of some earthly government. In those instances, my religious convictions take first priority, and I strongly believe it is a serious sin to deny hospitality to anyone who requests it.

In my case, the situation is hypothetical, because I could not allow just anyone into my home. The safety of my family is first priority. But if I were single, or pastored a church where I could house them, I'd probably be preparing for a stay in Clud Fed.
Reply #11 Top

These people cook your meals, clean your hotel rooms, care for your children etc. The problem is that American business is addicted to their cheap labor. If the jobs weren't here, they wouldn't come.

The people that you are referring to could easily be on an immigrant Visa.  It's illegal to pay an employee without them being in the US legally. 

There are *many* ways to get into the US legally.  What is the incentive for somebody to go through the proper channels if they could get all the benefits by sneaking in?

Churches fall under the legal radar because they are businesses.  I am sure the government doesn't like to see a non-profit institution assisting illegal immigrants.  It doesn't matter what ethical stance you have- if there is a law that you break, you will risk facing the consequences.  If they didn't enforce the churches, what would prevent "churches" from popping up all over to house and feed immigrants who were here illegally?

Reply #12 Top

These people cook your meals, clean your hotel rooms, care for your children etc. The problem is that American business is addicted to their cheap labor. If the jobs weren't here, they wouldn't come.

The people that you are referring to could easily be on an immigrant Visa.  It's illegal to pay an employee without them being in the US legally. 

There are *many* ways to get into the US legally.  What is the incentive for somebody to go through the proper channels if they could get all the benefits by sneaking in?

Churches fall under the legal radar because they are businesses.  I am sure the government doesn't like to see a non-profit institution assisting illegal immigrants.  It doesn't matter what ethical stance you have- if there is a law that you break, you will risk facing the consequences.  If they didn't enforce the churches, what would prevent "churches" from popping up all over to house and feed immigrants who were here illegally?

Reply #13 Top
karma

. It's illegal to pay an employee without them being in the US legally.
There are *many* ways to get into the US legally. What is the incentive for somebody to go through the proper channels if they could get all the benefits by sneaking in?


yes, it is illegal but these illegal immigrants are working in our country. Why do we want to vilify them as law breakers but not condemn the business owners who are hiring them? They are just as wrong.

I don't think that it is an easy process going through the legal channels. It takes money which is something they don't have. That's why they're coming here - to make money.

I'm not saying its right. I'm saying that fixing this problem is going to take more than a wall at the border and deporting or incarcerating millions of people who are living and working in this country.
Reply #14 Top
Churches are NOT businesses. They do not make a profit, charge for their services, etc.
Reply #15 Top
They do not make a profit, charge for their services, etc.


Actually, depends on the church. Many of these "Megachurches" offer the pastors a percentage of everything in the collection plate, so while the church might not be for profit, the pastor certainly is. And many of them, sadly, DO charge for services.
Reply #16 Top
Listen, people are in jail right now for offering food and shelter to known fugitives. You don't harbor someone trying to avoid law enforcement, or you make yourself party to their crime. It's crap that they can get over the border and then use churches as their safehouses. Why should we overlook it for this crime?

If Mexico was some scary totalitarian regime that refuse to let people leave, it might be different. These people aren't seeking asylum, nor do they need sanctuary. Lots of people migrate legally to the US every year, and there's no reason why we should degrade what they do by catering to those who won't take the time and effort.

We already pay taxes to make up for the billions that they don't. The money we put in the collection plate shouldn't be used to abet criminal acts.
Reply #17 Top
I'm not ignorant. I know that our country spends money on non U.S citizens. I know that that it is a crime for them to be here illegally. I honestly do wish they would take the steps needed to become legal. This reform is supposedly going to help us and help them...I am bothered, though, by the fact that people who just want to lend a helping hand to these less fortunate people risk being prosecuted.

In general, (I know there are exceptions, so I don't need to be cleared up on that) most illegal aliens are NOT terrorists, rapists, murderers, etc.; they come here to work...they come From a place that does not have the opportunities they seek, and come To a place where they know they will be hired to work jobs no one else wants. I hate that they are being villified as anti- American good for nothings.

I don't exactly know the reasons why many don't become legal. Maybe it's not wanting to pay taxes? Maybe it's intimidation? Mabe it's the language factor? I wish this would be researched more. All I know is, I hope this reform not only protects us, but encourages them to get citizenship. Then maybe they'll be treated just like everyone else instead of being looked down upon.
Reply #18 Top
I'm not ignorant. I know that our country spends money on non U.S citizens. I know that that it is a crime for them to be here illegally. I honestly do wish they would take the steps needed to become legal. This reform is supposedly going to help us and help them...I am bothered, though, by the fact that people who just want to lend a helping hand to these less fortunate people risk being prosecuted.


It's OK to lend a helping hand to those in need, but you don't do it by hiding and feeding criminals. No matter how you look at it, they are criminals, they entered the US illegaly and that makes them criminals. The problem is the word criminal is considered a description of a very horrible person, a murderer, a rapist or drug dealers, when in reality it's who ever breaks a law. Someone who speeds over the speed limit is a criminal, throughing garbage on the ground makes you a criminal, not curbing your dog makes you a criminal, it just all depends on how big of a crime it really is and how the news potrays it.

If churches wanna help those in need, they need to go to Mexico and help them there, they need to convince the Mexican Gov't to better their situation. That's how you help those in need. You don't fix a problem by helping those affected, you fix the problem by fixing the source of it.

You don't stop Mexicans from crossing the border illegaly by eliminating the jobs they seek, buy making stronger laws, more border patrol or better equipment, you do it be helping them in their own country. Everyday I'm starting to believe that the money used in the war in Iraq could be better spent helping Mexico better itself. Iraq may be a benefit someday but Mexico can be a benefit now.

In general, (I know there are exceptions, so I don't need to be cleared up on that) most illegal aliens are NOT terrorists, rapists, murderers, etc.; they come here to work...they come From a place that does not have the opportunities they seek, and come To a place where they know they will be hired to work jobs no one else wants. I hate that they are being villified as anti- American good for nothings.


This was my point above. We hear the word criminal and we automatically think of murderers, rapist, terrorist, etc. But we forget that those with speeding tickets, j-walking, not curbing their dogs are also criminals, just not of the same level.

I don't exactly know the reasons why many don't become legal. Maybe it's not wanting to pay taxes? Maybe it's intimidation? Mabe it's the language factor? I wish this would be researched more. All I know is, I hope this reform not only protects us, but encourages them to get citizenship. Then maybe they'll be treated just like everyone else instead of being looked down upon.


No one really knows, still they only make it worse for themselves for not doing so. I don't agree with the idea of making it easier for those who are already here illegaly to become citizens or have temporary passes to stay while those going thru the legal process have to wait and probably be refused. It's just not fair to punish the legal ones and reward the illegal ones.

I think what needs to be done is to rework the process to allow them to come legally much easier and to also help their country so that they don't have to come here in search of money. It is unfair to me and everyone else to have to pay taxes, something they don't, to support them here illegaly in places like hospitals.
Reply #19 Top
In short what would Jesus say if he were on this forum, discussing this issue.

Church and State should be seperate, sure, however, people in need are people in need, who is to say why these people are crossing the border with out the proper channels being observed, but my guess is they are looking for a better life, they may break the laws of the US, but they are far from criminals. To treat these people as if they are is showing just how low we value the lives of others, who in most cases are innocent victims of a country which has been poorly managed and are searching for a better life in a country they percieve to have better values. Are they in for a shock. I'm not here to judge anyone, but lets be fair and look at this situation through the eyes of those crossing the border, not from the comfort of our homes, where we can comfortably pass judgement.

Having said this I should add that in most cases about the only people in Mexico and many other countries less well off than those in which we live, helping these people are people from the church, many are dying for their efforts, just look at El Salvador, and what has happened there in the past as an example. The church is not out to change the laws of the government , nor would they know who are illegal and those that are bona fide citizens, they are just there to help all no matter where they are situated.

Like I said it would interesting to hear what Jesus would say if he were to be in this forum.
Reply #20 Top
#19 by zergimmi
Friday, April 07, 2006


I understand where you are coming from but you must understand that in a country with man made laws, religious ideals can not be above the laws. That is the reason of separation of church and state.

I understand that these churches are only doing what they believe is right according to their beliefs, that however does not negate the fact that the illegals they help are criminals.

definition of crime: a violation of a local, state, or federal law.

Definition of criminal: someone who has committed (or been legally convicted of) a crime

No matter how you put it a law is a law and a criminal is a criminal. Do you consider a person speeding a criminal if they were running 80 mph in a 70 mph zone? The impact of an accident would be similar on either speeds but they would still get pulled over and given a ticket for breaking the law anyways.

Should we allow people from China, Africa, Central America, South America, The Middle East, Cuba, Domincan Republic and/or any other poor country enter the US with seeing them as criminals as well? They too have the right to seek a better life in a country that claims to offer just that. They do not have the conviniece of a border to the side of the US and we turn them right back when caught enetering illegaly, usually by boat. How come no one is fighting for their right to the great American Dream?

If we were to guide ourselves by our moral values instead of our laws and allow these illegal immigrants from Mexico to stay and ignore the law, should we not also try to find ways to help those in other countries to make their way to the US as well? Should we take cruise liners, cargo ships, tankers, any kind of ship or plane and send them to these poor countries and bring them to the US so that they too can enjoy the American Dream that these Mexicans are searching for as well?

I find it sad that, even though these churches are doing a nice thing by helping those in need, they are helping the criminals within the US yet those in Mexico are not being helped by them as well. f these churches trully feel these people need help they should not treat the symptoms, they should treat the cause of these symptoms.

Some say that we should not stick our noses in other countries businesses. Some say being the most powerful country in the world today it is our responsability to help those in need. If we help, we are only interested, if we don't we are cruel. There is just no winning.

This reminds me of the movie HERO with Jet Lee. They wanted to assassinate the king because he was invading all of those countries and killing a lot of people. But the king believes that he did what he did because he felt it was the only way to save everyone. That uniting all of them under one language, under one flag, under one race would make them stronger and give them all a better life. I may not be expressing it the same way he did, but even I was touched by his reason for doing what he was doing. Even I believed in him.