No. _Doctors_ make valid points about how illness could be treated. Actors make valid points about how Hamlet is supposed to say his lines.

Good point!

so when does John travolta get his flying saucer license?

I thought Scientology was a plot by aliens to control our minds?

Actually, according to scientology, we are supposed to have audits that tell us about the galactic encounters we have already had in our travels between universes. We will then use scientology methods to treat those traumas we suffered in our previous encounters.

No. _Doctors_ make valid points about how illness could be treated. Actors make valid points about how Hamlet is supposed to say his lines.

Excellent point although I would trust Cruise's opinion on Hamlet either

so when does John travolta get his flying saucer license?

Does he need one?

Tom cruise is a joke... just like scientology... i got no respect for him after that interview... he looked like a total jackass tring to act smart... should deport him to bahrian!

I really don't know much about scientology other than it's a matter-of-fact way of looking at life. As far as aliens go... I doubt that's a foundation of scientology apart from some of the weirdos who might believe it

 

You don't know much about it, yet you doubt that aliens are a fundamental part of it?

Aliens are a HUGE part of it.  HUGE. 

You're obviously very emotional about this, as I was just trying to see both sides. So I'll beg out now as I have no interest in scientology, murderers or aliens, so I'll just go back to my life now.

No, you pretty much told her she was wrong.  She told you otherwise, and now you say she's emotional?  

I'm going to leave this conversation now before I say something I'll regret.

As for scientology - it's insanity masquerading as a religion, and I pity Katie Holmes.

 

Jill, I read Brooke Shield's book, "Down Came the Rain". She went through some pretty serious stuff after her baby was born. She cried all the time, hallucinated, and was just in a dark place for such a long time. I can tell you that I lost a whole lot of respect for Tom after he made those comments about her post partum depression. I was like, "What the hell does he know about that? " He had no right poking his nose into her business, either. I used to think he was an Okay guy. I liked him as a matter of fact.
Now I just think he's a bit loony.

Aliens are a HUGE part of it. HUGE.

Aliens are my friend?

I agree with Cruise to a point; people are extremely overmedicated these days. Go to the doctor with a mild case of the blues, and suddenly you're walking around with an insane smile and cheery laugh because you're stoned on anti-depressants.
Also, this culture of mental illness, if you'd want to call it that, has created a whole new class of victims who have an "out" for taking responsiblity for their actions.
See Debra LaFave, the schoolteacher who repeatedly had sex with a 14 year old (and very lucky, I might add. VERY lucky) male student. According to her, she's not to blame for her actions, her "illness" is.
But that's not to say that this is always the case. I don't know about aliens, but I bet Abbott Labs and other drug manufacturers are plenty happy about it.

Go to the doctor with a mild case of the blues, and suddenly you're walking around with an insane smile and cheery laugh because you're stoned on anti-depressants.

Sorry, but this sort of ignorant, half-assed comment just contributes to the social stigma against mental illness in the US. Rubbish. Ignorant, shit-faced rubbish.

Frankly, you should be embarrassed.

Go to the doctor with a mild case of the blues, and suddenly you're walking around with an insane smile and cheery laugh because you're stoned on anti-depressants.

Give me a fucking break. I was unlucky enough to have had post-partum depression with two of my babies and I can tell you that I was never on ANY medication that made me walk around with an insane smile OR cheery laugh OR that made me feel stoned. Anti-depressants DON'T do that. Haldol, Valium and Ativan do, but those aren't routinely prescribed for depression.

Those medications gave my brain chemistry the kick in the pants that it needed to get itself back to normal again. Without them.....well, lets just say that I don't think I'd have bonded with or enjoyed my kids if I hadn't been diagnosed.

I'm also on an anti-depressant now; I've been on it for over 6 months. It's acting as a catalyst for my pain medication and the other meds I take for nerve damage (that's actual nerve damage, not 'nerves' as in 'nervous'). Am I stoned and drooling? No.

You've never suffered from a serious depressive episode, have you RW? if you had, I'll bet you wouldn't be so dame blase about anti-depressants and what they do.

Dev's right. You SHOULD be embarrassed of that statement.

An ex-girlfriend of mine was suffering depression and after seeing a counsellor for sometime (and taken medication that completely changed her personality) decided to go the 'healthy' way, stop taking her medication and start exercising and eating better. A few months later, she suffered an anxiety attack that was much, much worse than she'd ever previously had.

Tom Cruise should leave health issues to health professionals. At least Nicole finally saw him for what he is; a loopy loser.

Now, now, both sides are right to a point. I was privy once, thanks to the thin walls in my doctor's office, to a conversation between another doctor and a drug rep. I sat and listened for 15 minutes or so to a constant stream of pressure to push Prozac in even 'moderate' situations. The rep even suggested that people who weren't really sure if they would benefit from anti-depressants might find that they've been depressed and didn't realize that was what was dragging them down.

I was horrified and talked to people about what I should do about it. I found that not only was it so common as to be silly, there wasn't really anything wrong with what the rep said in terms of 'ethics', if you want to call them that. I know for a fact that I have been given by-rote speeches from doctors that sounded just like a brochure from drug companies, complete with lots of statistics.

The one time I was offered a prescription for Prozac was after a 30 minute session with a non-medical 'counselor' who sent people into the other room where a doctor sat and wrote out prescriptions for those sent in to him. Not everyone gets good mental health treatment. Go to one of the mental health clinics in rural America and I think you might be surprised.

Insurance companies would MUCH rather pay for a bottle of pills than pay hundreds of dollars an hour for counseling once a week. Between them and the drug companies, there is a push for medicating our personality disorders far more often that it would occur naturally. You rarely ever hear anyone working out their problems with a shrink anymore, you can just get you happiness in pill form.

I don't think anyone is saying that people don't often benefit from drug treatments. There's just too much bottom line involved with the decision to recommend drug treatment for many of us to stomach.

P.S. I have to be honest and say that not only did I reject the offer of anti-depressants then, I have never accepted them, even when told I was destined for suicide or worse by health care professionals. My nuttiness makes me who I am, and if people edge away from me fearfully every now and then I can deal with it.

I have no problem with people who do opt for medication, but I didn't want to give the impression with the last post that I am speaking from experience having used the drugs. I know people who have benefitted from them, and I've seen them pushed wantonly, but that's the only experience I can speak from.

Sorry, but this sort of ignorant, half-assed comment just contributes to the social stigma against mental illness in the US. Rubbish. Ignorant, shit-faced rubbish.

Well, maybe I'd agree with you if I hadn't seen it happen more than once to people I know and care about. One was my wife. I don't remember at the moment what they had her on, but she was awfully happy most of the time. I've also seen it in the people I work with, and even some of the kids who worked for me at the restaurant I mamaged.
In my opinion (and gee, I'm sorry if I wasn't supposed to give one that differed from your own), they DO overmedicate these days and give people stuff they don't need. This is because, in my opinion (please forgive), it's easier than treating the problem.

But that's not to say that this is always the case.

----Me

I think both bluedev and dharma missed this sentence.

And no, I've never been depressed enough to need medication. Sorry, but I don't really need some shrink with his own problems and agenda fucking with my head, anyway. I have friends who're more than willing to sit and listen to me bitch about my problems and NOT charge me two hundred clams an hour.

OOPS! There's my bias.

Gosh, I wonder how people dealt with it all back in the thousands of years before we had anti-depressants to lean on?

Gosh, I bet they (gasp!) DEALT with it! How sad for them.

Now, now, both sides are right to a point. I was privy once, thanks to the thin walls in my doctor's office, to a conversation between another doctor and a drug rep. I sat and listened for 15 minutes or so to a constant stream of pressure to push Prozac in even 'moderate' situations. The rep even suggested that people who weren't really sure if they would benefit from anti-depressants might find that they've been depressed and didn't realize that was what was dragging them down.

---Baker

There you go. Have a problem you're not even aware of? Drug yourself, just in case!

Hell, we should ALL be on meds, huh? From birth.

Gosh, I bet they (gasp!) DEALT with it! How sad for them

Or, they lived miserable lives or ended up killing themselves.

I had an Uncle who was so depressed that he hanged himself.  He lived *before* anti-depressants were widely available.  The Drs. dismissed his depression because he was in pain.  We, of course, now understand the link between chronic pain and depression, so we now treat it.  He wasn't treated, and the only "fix" for him was suicide.  Is that better than being medicated?  I somehow think not.

Real depression can't be "dealt" with.  You're talking about being blue, not depressed.  Real depression has no "reasoning".  You can't dig your way out. Your brain is like any other organ- sometimes it's just not "right". 

I have dealt with real depression.  I have been, and am currently on, medication.  I have *never* had my personality changed by the meds I'm on, and I have never been "overly" happy because of them.  All they do is let me be me instead of a pile of misery.

I have a feeling that the people who talk about antidepressants have never had a reason to take them themselves.  If you need them, *you know* that you need them- you don't need a Dr. to tell you that.

I really don't know much about scientology other than it's a matter-of-fact way of looking at life.

And where did you learn that?

I wouldn't call the belief in aliens and Xenu exactly a "matter-of-fact way of looking at life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

As far as aliens go... I doubt that's a foundation of scientology apart from some of the weirdos who might believe it.

Maybe you are mistaking Scientology for the Moonies?

In my opinion (and gee, I'm sorry if I wasn't supposed to give one that differed from your own), they DO overmedicate these days and give people stuff they don't need. This is because, in my opinion (please forgive), it's easier than treating the problem.

I have already stated that I do think, to a degree, people are over treated. But for those who have actually worked with the mentally ill, and with many people in the health care arena in general, I can tell you that making the generalization the people are overmedicated is simply not true. Read the literature, the facts are out there.

I'm not for throwing medication at everyone, and I fully believe that people who have medication should have other types of therapy as well (be it cognitive, behavioraly, etc., just something else). But the generalization you made was just rubbish.

My wife is a diagnosed Manic-Depressive (technically she's BPRC, but that's not really relavent... about 3 years ago. Before the diagnosis she'd under go bouts of depression so deep that even her children couldn't bring her to smile or care. And this is a woman who's very BEING cries out with joy at being a mother. Then she should would gradually (over a course of a couple weeks)get better and then turn into a "rushrushrush" type of person. The house, normally cluttered with 4 small(ish) children, would be immaculate - museum quality. Dinner would be ready 45 minutes before it was needed. She would be constantly DOING things. And get so caught up doing them that she'd forget to care for the kids. Again, this is a woman who, when "normal" exists for her children, that's just her basic personality. This cycle would take about 3 to 4 months to complete and she'd be back at the bottom again.

Diet? Tried that, nothing worked. Healthier, organic, long stretch of semi-vegetarian diet. Additional vitamins, nothing worked. They've got her on a combination of Lithium (to lower the manic episodes) and an anti-depressant (can't remember off -hand which one. It's not Prozac ... she takes that for the migraines). Is she better? Much. Does she still cycle? Yes, the cycles are just nowhere NEAR as severe. In fact, it's now more of a bluesy type of feeling for the lows and a feeling of needing to do something for the highs.

Her personality? The same as it's always been. She's still her bright, cheery self that absolutely adores her kids.

Real depression can't be "dealt" with. You're talking about being blue, not depressed. Real depression has no "reasoning". You can't dig your way out. Your brain is like any other organ- sometimes it's just not "right".

That says it all. Everything we tried, failed. Only by using the medications available to help moderate her swings, has she been able to maintain something close to a "normal" life.

We, of course, now understand the link between chronic pain and depression, so we now treat it.

My wife has picked up on this one. She can tell when I am hurting (and have been for more than a couple days) because I start
"acting all funky", to use her phrase. When I'm not in constant pain, I am a little cheerier (at least as cheery as I get normally). I mean, how cheery do you expect a cynical, pessimistic, pain-in-the-arse to get?

Wow, got a good discussion going on!

To those arguing against medication to treat depression, I will ask this, which is worse, to "over medicate" and have someone walking around smiling all the time, or to not medicate and have them pull an Andrea Yates? People die due to depression. People kill due to depression. Severe depression is a very reall problem that a person can't just "deal" with.

Saying that people 'dealt' with depression before antidepressants is like saying people 'dealt' with cancer before chemo. Sure, they dealt with it by suffering and dying.

The arguement that doctors over prescribe could be applied to antibiotics too. Guess we shouldn't use those either. People will abuse and misuse anything. That doesn't mean that people who really truly need it shouldn't have it.

I have never suffered real depression. I merely had the blues but that was enough for me to get a taste of what true depression must be like. I personally comment people like Brooke Shields who recognize that they have a real problem that could be a danger to their family or themselves and seek help. I think that must be a very difficult to face and anyone who condemns such a thing should be ashamed.

which is worse, to "over medicate" and have someone walking around smiling all the time, or to not medicate and have them pull an Andrea Yates?

over medication is bad too... can be potentially harmful...

To those arguing against medication to treat depression, I will ask this, which is worse, to "over medicate" and have someone walking around smiling all the time, or to not medicate and have them pull an Andrea Yates?

That is kind of like asking what is the best way to die, for in one instance, they kill or die, and in the other they might as well be dead.

no one is suggesting that people who need medication shouldn't get it. People are suggesting that medication is being offered to people before an adequate diagnosis is made. I've been "diagnosed" as being manic depressive twice in my life, once as bi-polar, and none of the times took more than 30 minutes and no physical exam was done to see if there was really any chemical imbalance.

Of those three times I was only offered a prescription once, but all three times I was told I would be vastly benefitted by drug therapy. You'll pardon me if I tend to think that there is a push toward medicating people that isn't necessarily driven by concern for the patient. I'm not the most stable person, I acknoledge that, but I think I do okay without pills. At the very least I would want to know more than some counselor with an AA degree could tell after 30 minutes.

Let me say this again:

But that's not to say that this is always the case.

----Me

This was meant to state that I acknowledge that *SOME* people really DO need medication. But too many don't, and are given the magic Happy Pills anyway, as Baker pointed out. That's the trend these days.....to medicate when we feel down. No one should EVER have to be sad or in a bad mood! Here! Have a prescription for Xanax!

My wife was having panic attacks due to problems with some classes she was taking for her degree. Graduation was coming up, and she may not have been able to graduate (she did).
Whatever they put her on, it made her like a happy zombie. When she was taking the pills she was spooky. No other word for it. You could crap on her head and pee in her eye and she'd just smile. I wouldn't want to be like that.

Other people I've seen are just too damn upbeat and cheerful; it's unnatural.

over medication is bad too... can be potentially harmful...

duh

That is kind of like asking what is the best way to die, for in one instance, they kill or die, and in the other they might as well be dead.

?? Doc, are you saying that if you are just in a "good mood" all the time you might as well be dead? I can't agree with that at all. And, I will go so far as to say that I personally would rather be in a medicated stupor than risk harming my loved ones.

no one is suggesting that people who need medication shouldn't get it.

Wrong Baker. You might not be suggesting that but people like Tom Cruise are. He claims it is "irresponsible" to take medication for mental illness...period.

I acknoledge that, but I think I do okay without pills.

That might work for you Baker, but there are plenty of people who think they can do without out it and end up snapping. Again, I agree that people are misdiagnosed and overly medicated. But you know what, that happens with all sorts of medical problems. I know people who have back problems who have been put into drug induced stupors rather than being sent to physical therapy. There are bad doctors. There are uneducated patients. It surely isn't limited to mental health.

I know people who choose to hold off on using medication for mental issues because they are aware of the effects it will have on their ability to think at their fullest capacity. But there comes a time when the illness gets so severe that they can no longer manage it and they need to compromise when that time comes.

I personally believe that a person seeking medical treatment for a mental illness needs to do their homework or have a dependable representative who has done their homework in order to make educated decisions regarding care. I believe the same applies to any medical treatment. We can't simply rely on what one doctor says. It is our life and we are responsible for it.

My wife was having panic attacks due to problems with some classes she was taking for her degree. Graduation was coming up, and she may not have been able to graduate (she did). Whatever they put her on, it made her like a happy zombie.

Rightwinger, I'll ask you this, how did "they put her on" anything? Was she forced to take drugs? What caused her to go to the doctor for anxiety in the first place? If she knew she was anxious about graduating (which I can relate to), why go to the doctor?

I agree that people should have ups and downs. I don't believe people should go to the doctor for ups and downs. I do believe people should seek help when they are having irrational fear that has no apparent trigger. They should seek help if they feel suicidal or have thoughts of hurting others.

Noone forces us to see a doctor or take a medication. Noone should be shunned for getting medical help for real, dangerous psychosis. I won't claim that there are doctors who encourage unneeded medication but I will put forth that too many people are seeking quick fixes for normal problems. If people are expecting a life with no sadness or bad moods, then I say those people are the root of the problem.

Just like the parents who want a quick fix for their over active child. There are a lot of lazy parents today who medicate kids rather than dealing with them. I have a hard time believing there are as many truly ADD kids (and adults for that matter) these days. We are all looking for excuses and quick fixes for differences that are actually not abnormal. They are just differences. Pretty soon plastic surgery will do away with physical differences and antidepressants will do away with behavior differences. Won't that be great?