Civil Disobedience and the Politics of Hate

from JoeUser Forums

Another fallen Oklahoma soldier will be buried soon in the Oklahoma Panhandle. And once again, Fred Phelps and his germs will make the trek down to the city of Guymon, Oklahoma to wave their banners of hate at the family of Joshua Pierce, who paid the ultimate price in Iraq.

This time, Phelps and his bacteria are likely to get arrested under a new Oklahoma law that forbids protests at funerals. Many other states are working on enacting such laws.

The problem I have is, while it makes me feel absolutely filthy to say this, Fred Phelps is right when he says such laws are unConstitutional. The First Amendment does not give you the right to free speech, it PROTECTS it, by limiting the restrictions the government may make on your speech. It is made applicable to ALL states by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

As much as we may want to shut the door to the Fred Phelps of the world, to lock them out of sight, the simple fact is, we must recognize our duty to the Constitution. If we are to honor this fallen soldier, it is in our best interests to honor the Constitution he died to protect, and not to enact laws that most of us would agree with in principle.

There are simple remedies for Fred Phelps' brand of activism. Have the funeral on private property, and it is acceptable to charge these cretins with trespassing. Bring out local National Guard units, volunteer firefighters, and/or law enforcement officers to form a barricade to protect the family from the "protestors". Keep the funeral details private and accessible only to close family and friends. But to usurp the Constitution because of this speech, no matter how offensive, is to dishonor the Constitution the soldier died for and equally dishonor the flag that will drape the soldier's coffin.

3,057 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

I noticed you are picking up Ted's term.

But while I fully support the right of free speech, a cemetary is private property.  They get around that by protesting outside of it.  Free Speech should not be abridged, but that does not give you a right to yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  Instead of trespassing, they can get them on inciting a riot.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's really not fair to a grieving family to have to alter the plans they make for the funeral of their loved one because of assholes like Phelps & co.

I DO advocate violence against this man and his followers. I sincerely do. If he ever showed up at a funeral I was attending, I would go to jail. Gladly.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
The law does accept some reasonable level of provocation sometimes. And then there's always temporary insanity. I can't imagine a better time for someone to snap than at their loved-one's funeral. I doubt anyone would think it strange that a grieving family member wouldn't want to knock this guy's teeth out.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
This isn't a free speech issue. The founding fathers made it pretty clear that they didn't intend freedom of speech to be misconstrued as "say what you want, where ever you want, whenever you want to say it".

It has never been legal to demonstrate at the Supreme Court, in the chambers of Congress, inside the White House, on military installations or on private property (without the consent of the owner). Telling a gaggle of verminous worms that they can't spread their satan loving hate at a funeral is merely one of those laws you never figured you would have to make.

I 2nd Texas Wahine's statement. If this bacteria showed up at one of my troops' (loved ones, or both) funerals, there would be bloodshed. Sadly, it would probably be me or Texas Wahine going to jail, instead of the (only slightly) human debris who showed up to the funeral for no better reason than to get their jollies off other people's misery.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

If this bacteria showed up at one of my troops'

That is the second time I have heard bacteria............

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
That is the second time I have heard bacteria............


I use the term "bacteria" to describe terrorists who have no regard for human life. Does that description fit this worm or what? ;~D
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

I DO advocate violence against this man and his followers. I sincerely do. If he ever showed up at a funeral I was attending, I would go to jail. Gladly.

Oh, I agree with that strategy. If one of "our boys" goes down, I'm gonna suggest to the fire department that we all roll out in full bunker gear with a grass rig full of water. I bet a 500 GPM pump will stop even Phelp's mouth!

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
protest at a funeral... comone.. thats just idiotic... there should be some frame of humanity within your bones to know when to and when not to.... i would beat this guy to a pulp...
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
And Phelps is a preacher. He tells his followers they have to do this crap.

I saw on the news that bikers have been going to these funerals and standing between the families and the protesters while holding large American flags. Who better to kick some ass.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I saw on the news that bikers have been going to these funerals and standing between the families and the protesters while holding large American flags. Who better to kick some ass.


As a volunteer firefighter, I say they should enact a law allowing us to show up in turnout gear and turn the hoses on these imbeciles. I bet after a couple encounters with water pouring out at 500 gpm, these yoyos will head back to Kansas.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
bikers have been going to these funerals and standing between the families and the protesters while holding large American flags. Who better to kick some ass


I say they should enact a law allowing us to show up in turnout gear and turn the hoses on these imbeciles


as reprehensible as i found phelps long before he embarked on this latest abomination--and fully appreciating the frustration and outrage driving these comments--two memories instantly jumped out while reading them: angels confronting peace marchers on the tracks berkeley/oakland 1965 and the birmingham fd in 1963.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
angels confronting peace marchers on the tracks berkeley/oakland 1965 and the birmingham fd in 1963.


To compare Phelps' actions with "peace marchers" is not quite apt, kingbee. He's not targetting government entities, he's not targetting religious groups, he's targetting families in their moments of grief. Families should have the right to grieve without having to encounter THIS.

Maybe the state, instead of passing a law that's virtually certain to be overturned to give this guy MORE publicity, could pass a law allowing municipalities to "lease" the road right of ways in front of the funeral homes, churches, etc for the purpose of certain express events (such as funerals, etc) for a nominal fee that could be included in the cost of the funeral. The street would then be private property at that particular time and the group could be arrested for trespassing.

Just a thought. We really need to protect the rights of these families to grieve.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I would be willing to bet that if some military men showed up at a funeral that phelps was attending he would scream bloody murder, as usual only the liberal left has the "right" to be a boor!
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
angels confronting peace marchers on the tracks berkeley/oakland 1965


I'm not sure, but I don't think these bikers are Hell's Angels.

And it's not only the harrassement of the grieving families, it's also saying and holding signs that read things like: "God hates America because it tolerates homosexuals."

I just went to his site.Link

"Thank God For Katrina (Mongrel Bush and His Battle of New Orleans)"

"America is irreversibly doomed. It is a sin to pray for the good of this evil fag nation."

"It is a sin NOT to rejoice when God executes His wrath and vengeance upon America."

"Pray for more dead bodies floating on the fag-semen-rancid waters of New Orleans."
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I remember reading this somewhere:

"Your right to throw punches end at someone else's nose"


That said, converting land into temp private land in terms of leasing seems to be a good idea. Nice way to respect rights on both groups.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
To compare Phelps' actions with "peace marchers" is not quite apt, kingbee. He's not targetting government entities, he's not targetting religious groups, he's targetting families in their moments of grief. Families should have the right to grieve without having to encounter THIS.


I concur. Peace marchers may be inappropriate at times, and indeed with their spitting on soldiers and labeling them baby killers very repugnant, but they are not singling out soldiers, or bereaving families. I dont like the extreme behaviour at all. But this goes beyond that and into the personal hatred category.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
To compare Phelps' actions with "peace marchers" is not quite apt, kingbee


i never meant to suggest there was any sort of comparison between phelps and peace protestors...or between phelps and anyone with a shred of humanity, reason or both.

what struck me, i guess, was remembering how easily the unacceptable becomes an appropriate response to the abhorent.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Peace marchers may be inappropriate at times, and indeed with their spitting on soldiers


not to wander off too far off into mythland here but i've yet to locate a verifiable first person account of anyone in uniform being spit upon. i've asked a hell of a lotta people who were in the military during the period 1963-1975; not one claim to date. it's possible that'll change two minutes from now, so i'm not ruling it out completely, i have a really difficult time imagining anyone who wasn't totally delusional taking such a foolish risk.