Are you comfortable with that?

I can't say that I care either way about people that have done any of those things getting into heaven, at least if God decides to let them in. If heaven was restricted to perfect people it would be practically empty. If God wants people that have done those things to be there, then who am I to tell him he's wrong. I would assume that if such a person were to get in they would no longer be the person they were when they committed the sins in question. Forgiving is one of the basic points of christianity.
As for heaven, I don't think the streets are paved with gold either. Human form seems unlikely as well. The eternally happy and joyful I would expect. I can't understand how that would work, but that's fine. I would be surprised if heaven could be comprehended by any of us foolish mortals.

I ditto Danny...

And would like to add....I think I will be so relieved to FINALLY come face to face with Jesus, I won't really care about the neighbors.

Christianity also requires that you turn the other cheek and forgive those who wrong you. So if you do get to heaven, you've already forgiven the truly repentent pedophile. So it wouldn't matter.

"As long as a person repents before they draw their last breath, as long as they truly are sorry for the life they've lived and the kind of things they've done, they are (according to Christianity, anyway) granted forgiveness and eternal life in heaven. "

At least in Catholicism you have purgatory:

"In official Catholic teaching, after death, people who had repented for their sins, but had not expiated them, are purged before entering Heaven."

I don't like it, frankly. I would assume that if someone really, really repents then they really technically aren't the same person they were and aren't capable of doing such a thing. But, then, I'm not a GOOD Christian, either. I personally think that someone who could purposely victimize a child is probably too far gone to ever really repent of it.

I know, that isn't nice, and Jesus wasn't that way, yadda yadda. I gave up trying to be perfect a long time ago. IMHO, I don't have the authority to forgive someone unless a) I'm God, or The wrong was done to me. In leiu of those circumstances, I'll leave the forgiving to people qualified. God made me what I am, and I am primarily a father. Nothing, and I mean nothing on Earth is more dispicable than someone that would hurt a child. To me Hell was conceived just for people like that.

I'd add that, to me, once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done, especially in a place like Heaven where such a thing would be so utterly alien.

At least in Catholicism you have purgatory

They brought it back? News to this ex-Catholic.

Hmmm...my cousin is a murderer. But he's also a Christian. I know I'll be happy to see him in heaven. My uncle stole $14,000,000 dollars from his employer and is in prison. I'll be happy to see him in heaven.

I don't think that what other people do or don't do negates what *I'm* doing. Does that make sense? If I'm Christian, and I truly want EVERYONE to be Christian, I don't where when and where that conversion takes place, as long as it happens.

In reality though, I am prideful. If say, Tookie Williams did become a Christian while those chemicals were coursing through his veins, I suppose I'd feel a little...jipped. Because he got to live fast and hard and I'm 25 years old and haven't really done anything "bad"...you know? I guess I don't know if that makes sense.

I would assume that if such a person were to get in they would no longer be the person they were when they committed the sins in question. Forgiving is one of the basic points of christianity. As for heaven, I don't think the streets are paved with gold either. Human form seems unlikely as well.

Yes, but what about the person who has been horrible in life but who repents at the very last moment of their life?  What about them?

One of the things that spurred my decision to quite teaching sunday school was the senior teacher's insistence on telling kids (young and teenagers alike) that heaven's streets were paved with gold and that we'd have feasts and banquests and all kinds of parties.  I felt like I couldn't impart upon young minds things that I didn't believe to be true, and that if I continued to do so I'd be a hypocrite.  So, I quit.  But, a LOT of people think the same way, that we'll all be in human form and we'll do all manner of human things and activities.

I would assume that if someone really, really repents then they really technically aren't the same person they were and aren't capable of doing such a thing.

Who's to say?  I could repent tomorrow and still be basically the same person I am today.  We can't assume things like that.

Nothing, and I mean nothing on Earth is more dispicable than someone that would hurt a child. To me Hell was conceived just for people like that.

And I agree with you, but.....how would you feel if you knew that someone who you'd looked down upon in life because their actions reduced them to nothing better than pondscum (Parated's 'bacteria' is a good example) would be sharing the same heaven as you? 

 

Christianity also requires that you turn the other cheek and forgive those who wrong you. So if you do get to heaven, you've already forgiven the truly repentent pedophile. So it wouldn't matter

Christianity requires a LOT of things from people that a lot of times are ignored, like not being a pharisee for example. Forgiveness can be a terribly hard thing to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of Christians holding grudges walking around, unable and probably unwilling to truly forgive someone.

I'd add that, to me, once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done

Ahh, yes.  I'm running into that myself, actually.  I'm having problems with some things I did earlier in my life...it's nothing horrible; I didn't kill anyone and I didn't steal anything...now that I've changed the way I do things and the way I look at things it's killing me to accept the things I DID do way back when.  I can't imagine what someone who tortured and killed a defenseless child has to live with.

Maybe there is some "low rent" places in heaven so we will not have to share space with the awful people that escape at the last moment by saying sorry, I repent.

In reality though, I am prideful. If say, Tookie Williams did become a Christian while those chemicals were coursing through his veins, I suppose I'd feel a little...jipped. Because he got to live fast and hard and I'm 25 years old and haven't really done anything "bad"...you know? I guess I don't know if that makes sense.

It makes PERFECT sense, and thank you for being so honest.  That's what I was getting at - here you are striving every day to adhere to your faith's tenets, but there he was robbing and killing his way through life.  To think that you will share the same heaven because he repented at the last minute - that would sting me a bit if I was christian. 

Thanks for such an honest answer, marcie.  That's the standard I'd like to see in all the comments.   

Here's my answer for what it's worth.
I believe that the same folks who fuck you up in this life are gonna be there waiting for you in the next one too. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it and live in eternal peace, is to just find a way to deal with it.

My expierence in dealing with these kinds of people over the last twelve years is that they are remarkably like everybody else. I remember being at a car show in a park one summer afternoon and talking to a guy about the cycles on display and a week later found myself booking him in on a murder warrant from California. Funny, but at the time I was talking to him he had aready killed and buried a guy in the dessert and I (like everybody else there that day) didn't know the difference.

Good article Dharma. Thought provoking...

Ahh, yes. I'm running into that myself, actually. I'm having problems with some things I did earlier in my life...it's nothing horrible; I didn't kill anyone and I didn't steal anything...now that I've changed the way I do things and the way I look at things it's killing me to accept the things I DID do way back when. I can't imagine what someone who tortured and killed a defenseless child has to live with.

The human journey...Christian or anything else...is about growth, isn't it? It's about making mistakes and learning from them. My cousin that killed that guy...I guess I haven't really talked to him about it...but he lives his life like a normal person, you know? He works, he bought a house, he's dating, he's going to church. What he did was really bad, but I think that when you make a mistake like he did...an *awful* mistake, you learn from it, realize how much of a gift you have, and you choose not to let it go to waste. You can't stop living your life...

Incidentally, my uncle that stole all that money--he said the most liberating moment of his life was the day he got caught. And I believe it. All those years of living a lie...and now that he's in prison, he's leading Bible studies, helping the guys in his dorm get their GED's and such. He's doing stuff that *matters*...not sitting behind a desk writing illegal checks. He's working real work--he was plowing snow a winter or two ago and he actually got LOCKED out of the facility and they wouldn't let him back in (ha ha!!!!), and this Thanksgiving he finally got a 24 hour period to be out with his family. Things are actually better now than they were before.

Things happen for a reason. If Tookie became a believer that last moment of his life, I believe that happened purposefully. Jeffrey Dahmer professed to be a Christian before he was killed (although who knows). You just never know...

I think this nicely sums up what I believe:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Alma Chapter 34: 32-34 (The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ)

"Who's to say? I could repent tomorrow and still be basically the same person I am today. We can't assume things like that."

That's kind of the definition of repentance, though. If you are still the same person the next day, I doubt your repentance would be sincere, and therefore you probably can't lie your way into heaven by way of an omnipotent God.

Alright, so get ready for the almighty philosophy of Trinitie:

Murderers and rapists won't be merderers and rapists in heaven. They will be....well, basically unrecognizable. Even friends and family (and enemies) will be long lost.

Honestly, I would be proud to share heaven with anyone who lived a broken life (no matter how broken it may have been) and repented (no matter how late they may have been). To me, these people are heroes. To have seen hell and to have felt forsaken, and to have found some path back to the light.....is simply amazing.

I've done some pretty shitty things....maybe not comparable to rape or murder, but nonetheless shitty.

I can only hope that people like Dan will be willing share their cloud with me.

I rule.

Trinitie

Christianity requires a LOT of things from people that a lot of times are ignored, like not being a pharisee for example. Forgiveness can be a terribly hard thing to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of Christians holding grudges walking around, unable and probably unwilling to truly forgive someone.

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Christianity requires a LOT of things from people that a lot of times are ignored, like not being a pharisee for example. Forgiveness can be a terribly hard thing to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of Christians holding grudges walking around, unable and probably unwilling to truly forgive someone.

Well they won't go to heaven then. Heaven's not for everyone - it's one of the most exclusive clubs around. I doubt if even 10% of those who get called devout would make it under the rules in the bible. It's not such a bad thing though. There aren't that many angels, and only a few fell. We'll outnumber the bad guys in hell.

once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done

I totally agree with this. I also think that with true repentance, that "full life" of criminal behavior is not something to look back on with fond memories.

Also, I don't think that just because you say "I repent" that you get the get into heaven free card. It seems to me that there is a big gap between recognizing the need to repent hence saying it, and actually feeling the full force of that repentance on the soul. And if anyone knows if a soul is truly repentant I'm guessing it would be God. I also believe that God takes into consideration the attitude of "I'm gonna commit all kinds of evil because I can repent at the last minute and have a clean slate" thing when he calls you up to the carpet.

And for all those evil souls who plan on a life of rape, pillage, murder, hat and crime and plan on using the "repent and get into heaven free card" there are always those karmic sudden accidents that kill you dead before you even have time to form a thought. (not wishing death on anyone but pointing out that such a person can die accidentally without having time to repent... then that person is really on the hot seat.)

sorry double entry

Literature is full of descriptions of hell, but few tales of heaven.

I like to think that there's not a lot out there about it because it's indescribable. But I don't know if that's reality or not.

I believe that the same folks who fuck you up in this life are gonna be there waiting for you in the next one too. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it and live in eternal peace, is to just find a way to deal with it

Much like it is in this life, huh? 

I think this nicely sums up what I believe

I think that's a bloody brilliant bit of writing too!

If you are still the same person the next day, I doubt your repentance would be sincere, and therefore you probably can't lie your way into heaven by way of an omnipotent God.

I don't think that you can either, but.....I've known people who have had a 'jesus' moment and who said they were 'saved' but who were pretty much the same people afterwards....just minus the lying and the drinking and the stealing.

To me, these people are heroes

To you, maybe.  You have a slightly different outlook on things, you're more comtemporary in your faith and your outlook....but to some people sharing eternity with someone who decided to repent at the very last minute is rather distasteful.  Like Marcie said, they feel cheated - they've led what they consider to be a godly life, they've strived for years to do things that please their god to ensure their place in heaven - yet the person who did nothing but harm most of their lives gets an equal place next to them?  Not really fair, is it?

I don't believe in heaven, but if I did I'd say that I agree with your thoughts about what it's like.  I don't think that people retain their human form either.  In fact, what you described is a lot like my belief about what happens to us after we've had our last ride on the reincarnation merry-go-round.  Our souls shake off the meat overcoat we've been wearing for too long and go to join all the other souls who have attained enlightenment - and THAT is where god is. 

Well they won't go to heaven then. Heaven's not for everyone - it's one of the most exclusive clubs around. I doubt if even 10% of those who get called devout would make it under the rules in the bible

Here's the thing though : people think that they can have a mean-spirited heart; they think that they can treat people horribly and be materialistic and sinful,  but as long as they go to church on sundays and know their scripture they'll get in when their time comes. 

I agree with you, btw.

Also, I don't think that just because you say "I repent" that you get the get into heaven free card. It seems to me that there is a big gap between recognizing the need to repent hence saying it, and actually feeling the full force of that repentance on the soul.

Me too.  There's a lot more to repenting that simply saying it because it's what you think you need to do.  However, I do think that there are some people who wholeheartedly repented at the very end of their vicious, spiteful, murder filled lives.  My question was how would people feel about sharing eternity with people like that - we all seem to feel superior to 'those' people, and a lot of christians I know are really quite uncomfortable sharing their eternity with people like that.

 

I do know that Simon attempted to explain His feelings on the topic in a poem He wrote a year or two ago, and I'll share here. (if you don't mind.)

I don't mind at all, and I love that poem.  I'm saving it, if he doesn't mind.

ps- I know you said I had mail on my most recent thread, but I've yet to recieve it. Been having issues with hotmail and msn lately, could ya try gmail? ([email protected])[/quote] Yeah, I'll send out another one this morning. I like to think that there's not a lot out there about it because it's indescribable. But I don't know if that's reality or not

I think that there's not a lot out there because hell is different things to different people.  One person's hell might be spending forever with people they didn't like in life (rapists and murderers, for instance), whilst another person's hell might be something totally different.

My take, without reading any other responses: That particular person would have to truly repent. Judged before God, they would be weighed and measured. If God says they're good enough for Heaven...

I'm working through a lot of forgiveness issues, forgiving myself, forgiving others that have hurt me deeply. With God's grace, especially in Heaven in His presence, forgiveness is easier. Exhibiting a truly forgiving nature... I think that's part of being a full Christian.

Is that difficult? Gosh, it might be humanly impossible. But that's why I said, "with God's grace," above.

My take, without reading any other responses: That particular person would have to truly repent. Judged before God, they would be weighed and measured. If God says they're good enough for Heaven...

Mine as well.  If God decides, who are we to question him?

Here's the thing though : people think that they can have a mean-spirited heart; they think that they can treat people horribly and be materialistic and sinful, but as long as they go to church on sundays and know their scripture they'll get in when their time comes. I agree with you, btw.

I hope those people are treated in the manner the bible says they deserve, although to be honest the last thing I want to see in my afterlife are the same sanctimonious bastards I disliked whilst I was alive - I like my stuff too much to have much hope of entering a Christian heaven, so I'd be hanging out with the zealots in the fire.

I'm glad you agree though - I wasn't sure before. I'm often amazed by how many people never stop to think about how they're fulfilling or not fulfilling God's laws. It's particularly sad that those who have a pious reputation so rarely are.

If God decides, who are we to question him?

See, now we're getting off subject.  My question was how people would feel about sharing their eternity with some pretty unsavory characters, not about god and his decisions.  I wanted to know how YOU would feel about it, whether you'd like it, felt it was fair or not.  Marcie gave an excellent answer when she said she'd feel a little jipped.

Exhibiting a truly forgiving nature... I think that's part of being a full Christian. Is that difficult? Gosh, it might be humanly impossible. But that's why I said, "with God's grace," above.

'To err is human; to forgive is divine'.

I know a LOT of christians who don't forgive, who carry a grudge.  The word 'pharisee' comes to mind.....