Race is hardware, but culture is software

I'm a culturalist

from JoeUser Forums

I have little patience for racists.  Most racists I encounter fall into two groups:

Group 1: People who are indoctrinated to be racists.  They grow up around racist people and become racist themselves. These are the people who will go to ridiculous lengths to "prove" that one race is "better" than another.

Group 2: People who confuse race with culture.  They'll say "Look at all those <insert racial group here> doing that? They're natural born <insert insult here>."  No. Not true. Not natural born. Perhaps a product of their culture but not of their genetic code.

To use an analogy, ones race is like the hardware of a person.  And while there are certainly minute differences between one race and another due to the pressures of natural selection over the past 100,000 years, those differences are not very significant.  Simply put, humans are remarkably similar genetically.

But culture is a whole different thing. Culture is like the operating system.  For example, if you take two identical personal computers and install two different operating systems on them, they will behave remarkably different. And on that point, I won't cower to political correctness and try to say all cultures are equal. They are not.

I don't even think it's a value judgment.  A culture's ability to produce happy, well adjusted people who live a long productive life has some subjectivity to it but not a lot.  If someone reading this wants to say "Well maybe misery and suffering is 'good' to some people? Who is to say that happiness, joy, physical health, and longevity are 'better'?"  To those people I say, go away and get a life. Let's be real.

Operating system debates are pretty common. MacOS vs Windows vs. AmigaOS vs. OS/2 vs. Linux and so forth.  And indeed, it gets hard to say that one is "better" in all ways than another. Few are.  But in the case of human culture, I don't think it's a MacOS vs. Windows XP type debate.  It's more like a MacOS vs. some machine whose running an OS that requires people to flip switches and put in punch cards.  The differences between some human cultures is so vast that it's pretty obvious that it's not geography or bad luck that caused the discrepancies. It's that their culture is holding them back.

Some cultures simply fail,  utterly, to produce happy, healthy, prosperous, productive people. 

When I see the behavior of the Islamic world, I don't think "Damn Arabs." I don't think there's any significant genetic difference. But I think at this point we can say that the Islamic culture, as a whole, has some serious problems.  It is not as good as other cultures. I mean that.  It's the Vic-20 of cultures. And I'm not just comparing them to the west.

There are several different major cultures on our planet:

  • American liberalism
  • European socialism
  • Japanese
  • Chinese
  • Indian
  • Russian Orthodox
  • Latin American
  • Islamic

These are just the largest ones that come to mind that have a specific identity. There are sub-cultures as well. African-Americanism, Latin American Socialism, Sub-Sahara African cultures, Eastern Europe Orthodoxy/Slavic which is quite different than European Socialism, Australian liberalism.  And even within these various groups, there are different modest differences.  I'm just pointing this out before someone jumps in with semantics and wants to list off the ones I mised.

Most of the major cultures have their pros and cons to them.  Just as we might debate whether MacOS is better than Windows XP, we can debate whether American liberalism, with its consumerism is better than European socialism with its economic stagnation.  Each has its problems.  So for the most part, debating the various major cultures is like trying to debate Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac and so forth.

But it seems to me that the Islamic culture stands out amongst them all as being the most problematic.  It has been this way for my entire life.  I can't remember a time in my 34 years of life where the Islamic World wasn't blowing up something, murdering innocencts, or lashing out at something.  And over what?  There are lots of theories as to why there are Muslim extremists who have a pattern of doing this kind of thing.  I can't think of any other cultures that so routinely and consistently use their people as ordinance. Muslims can't even claim to have suffered particularly harshly compared to other cultures.

My personal theory is that at some level, Muslims know that there is something wrong with their culture. That it fails to produce happy, healthy, prosperous people at anywhere near the rate of other cultures. And rather than trying to adapt (borrow features from) other cultures, it simply blames other cultures and lashes out.

The Muslim riots over the pictures of their prophet being in a Danish newspaper come across as more than just violent. They come across as infantile. A big temper tantrum from a culture that routinely cuts the heads off people, sets fire to the religious and national symbols of other cultures and nations, and intentionally murders women and children whose crime is that they are from a different culture.  If the Muslim world were an individual person, it would be a slow-witted spoiled brat child with psychotic tendancies.

I personally think the world would be better off if Islamic culture were to disappear -- entirely.  I definitely think that the human beings who inhabit the places that are dominated by that culture would be better off (the women definitely would be).  I can't think of a single contribution to the world that the Islamic world has provided in the past 500 years.  You have to go all the way back to the middle ages to find anything and how much of that was due to geography -- the Islamic world is centered around the fertile crescent where much of Indoeuropean civilization started from.

But as a practical matter, people won't stand up and say the obvious: Some cultures are not as good as others. They won't say it because you'll have unscrupulous politicians and opportunists tag those who say it as "Racist" even though race and culture are unrelated.  And because people won't say the obvious, they cannot move people to action.  A worldwide movement to put pressure on the Islamic world to knock it off and grow up would probably do some good.

While the other cultures continue to evolve and improve themselves, the Islamic culture stagnates and revels in hatred and violence.   So yea, you could say I'm a culturalist.  I think some cultures are more worthy than others.  I define "Better" in terms that I think are pretty universal for human kind. Happiness. Health. Longevity. Prosperity. Productivity. 

15,383 views 87 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
If it would even matter at all, I'd give you an insightful.

Wonderful, wonderful article. I think what you're saying has a lot of validity, and you've chosen a very clear, understandable, (and unique) analogy to illustrate it.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Very true.

There are no differences between different races or colours or whatever else a man is born with; not between sexes either. By that I mean relevant differences. That is why racism (and sexism) are wrong.

But there are significant differences between cultures. And some are better than others. Older socialists know this. Socialism (and communism) used to be about creating a better society, a better culture. It was argued that communism was a superior culture to capitalism and feudalism and what not. That was wrong. But the idea that some cultures are better than others is right. (And capitalism, with all its faults, proved to be better than communism.)

I am a culturist.

I seriously believe that an English-speaking man in a suit who drinks tea is better, culturally, than other people. But I am not a racist. I believe that everybody can become an English-speaking man in a suit and drink tea. It's learned behaviour, not genetic. (The example is a very dirty summary of the real thing!) For me an African or Indian who speaks with an English accent is English (or British).

You forgot the British culture, which is between the American and the European. It spans the British isles (including Ireland), Canada, Australia, and New-Zealand as well as some other countries and islands. (The Caribbean is a subset of the British culture, another mixture between cultures. This is probably well represented by the Creole languages the people speak there.)

Continental Europe really is one culture. The differences between the British (including the Irish) and the French are bigger than the differences between the Germans, the Italians, and the French.

It is difficult for me to think of an American culture, as it is an off-shoot of the British culture, which I now define as a mixture between American and European. It is a mixture not because of American influences (although there are now many), but because of where the American culture comes from.

European, British, and American culture are, of course, also related and owe a lot to Jewish culture, which is, again, now a mixture between the three (specifically German) and the Islamic (specifically Arabic) culture. (I usually refer to the three very related cultures as "ABC".)

Jewish culture influences European culture via Christianity and later via German culture.

It's all quite interesting.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cultures based on religion are generally problematic and often result in hatred and violence. We see that happening throughout the Middle East and Europe with the Islamic culture, but the Christian “culture” also has a history of hatred and violence. Christian fundamentalists have committed murder in the name of God for nearly 2000 years. The Crusades, The Reformation, The Inquisition, the actions of the KKK, and the murders of doctors who performed abortions are a few of the worst atrocities, not to mention the numerous wars that were fought between various Christian sects.

Some of the “cultures” in your list are probably not really cultures. What is “American liberalism” culture? You find liberals in all walks of life just like you find conservatives, although liberals are definitely better looking. European socialism is a form of government, not a culture. The United States is made up of many different cultures – regional, ethnic, and to some extent -- religious, especially with religious fundamentalists. Some occupations and interests might be somewhat cultural, such as technology or farming.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Muslims can't even claim to have suffered particularly harshly compared to other cultures.

C'est vrai que la théorie du complot fait ravage parfois dans le monde arabo-musulman. Quant à la compétition victimaire, les musulmans sont des années lumières d'en faire un fonds de commerce, comme chez bien d'autres...

If the Muslim world were a n individual person, it would be a slow-witted spoiled brat child with psychotic tendancies.

Est-ce que vous pensez vraiment que tous les musulmans sont slow-witted?
Sometimes, it's better te be slow-witted than narow-witted...
Je pense que votre jugement de valeur est assez biaisé, et apparemment basé sur des présupposés médiatiques...Est-ce que vous est-il arrivé de fréquenter des musulmans dans la vraie vie ?

There are several different major cultures on our planet....

Je trouve votre taxinomie culturelle un peu boiteuse, les critères changent d'une culture à un autre : entité géographique ( latin american, indian), croyance religieuse (russian orthodox,islamic), mode économique (american liberalism, european socialism).
Do you think that Europe still in socialism ideology ?
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cultures based on religion are generally problematic

The principal reason that the US Constitution is secular by intent, as are the governing constitutions of most western democracies.

Draw up two lists - one of countries with secular democracies, another of countries with theocratic rule. Then just look at it awhile.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Sometimes, it's better te be slow-witted than narow-witted...

Unfortunatley, the muslim culture is both.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Cultures based on religion are generally problematic and often result in hatred and violence.


What about Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia? What about China and North Korea?

The most violent cultures, those that have become a symbol for evil are not based on religion at all.

Blaming religion is easy. And it always sounds smart. It sounds as if one really understand humanity. But it's not that easy.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
A great example of an even more dismal failure of a culture is the American gypsy culture, which once had some residue of tradition, music, dance, basic mechanical/repair skills, but which has mostly devolved into rampant drunkenness, drug abuse, child and spouse abuse, living on welfare while begging and/or stealing or conning to get pocket money, etc. The smart, productive gypsies have left and largely abandoned any connection to their roots, while the parents remaining in the culture typically go to great pains to prevent their kids from learning to read, so that they have no options.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
"My personal theory is that at some level, Muslims know that there is something wrong with their culture. That it fails to produce happy, healthy, prosperous people at anywhere near the rate of other cultures. And rather than trying to adapt (borrow features from) other cultures, it simply blames other cultures and lashes out."


Dead on. It's the religion part that makes their bugs into features. Even once you realize how bad the bugs are, you can't admit they are bugs since God signed the comments, and God doesn't write bad code.

At some point most cultures decide "Wait, if this is bad code, and God doesn't write bad code, maybe God DIDN'T write this..." They accept it, though, because a thousand years of oppression have left their populations unable to handle much more than obfuscated GOTO statements. So, a nasty, memory eating loop it is until the system crashes and whoever ends up in charge of the middle east decides to impose something new at gunpoint.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
There are 1.3 billion muslims in the World, none of them are apparently individuals, but subscribe to some monolithic single minded property (has Brad seen too many Alien movies?), according to Brad.

There are of course muslims who happily co-exist with all types of cultures and ideologies. There are islamic marxists and conservative muslims and also socialists and liberals etc. There are muslims who happily live side by side with the modern World.

There are unfortunatelly those who still believe that Media gives an accurate picture of the way things are. In the Danish situation there's much more to the events than the cartoons alone show. Americans should take a look at what has happened there the last 3-4 years to get a more full picture. Watching 5 minute clips on CNN wont do it.

Hope to buy GC2 soon

Marcus (happily atheist/heathen)
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

There are 1.3 billion muslims in the World, none of them are apparently individuals, but subscribe to some monolithic single minded property [...], according to Brad.


Uhm, no. I'm afraid you have to read his article again.



Marcus (happily atheist/heathen)


Don't tell the Muslims.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

First, like Tex, I got to give you 2 thumbs up!  Outstanding!  Exactly!  Thank you!  Now on the following.

Blaming religion is easy. And it always sounds smart. It sounds as if one really understand humanity. But it's not that easy.

Unfortunate and true.  they use it like Stalin did, and forget what Stalin did.  Too many have advanced that argument. and ran away when confronted with contrary data.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
For once I agree with you Draginol. I think there are some cultures that are better than others, and certainly I consider contemporary Middle Eastern political culture to be almost utterly lacking in redeeming features. I don't think it's purely a divide of religion though, as the differences between the 'Asian Values' of southeast Asian Islam and Middle Eastern values are to my mind far more significant than the differences between American and European social-liberalism. But as you said that's just semantics.

The basic thesis of your argument I agree with entirely. Like Tex said, if I thought it would mean anything at all I would give you an insightful for this one.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Unfortunate and true. They use it like Stalin did, and forget what Stalin did.


It's like the "it's all about oil" argument. They think they display an extraordinary amount of wise cynicism and that they "get it" while others do not.

But in truth they just took the first obvious (and wrong) answer and believe that they are smarter than those who already rejected it.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Marcus, I don't think you got the gist of what I was saying.  I am not talking about individuals or people. I am talking about cultures -- a set of principles, guidelines, values, etc. I can assure you, a culture has no feelings to hurt.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Marcus, I don't think you got the gist of what I was saying.


I think he finds it difficult to separate the individual from the principles that individual can choose to follow.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I might have misunderstood, my mistake then.I however think it's wrong to talk about Islam as a culture at all. Let me explain if you like:

I have Iranian friends who does not like the term Islamic Culture (even though some of them are Muslims,Atheists or Zoroastrians). It fails to separate the real underlying cultures. When certain scientists (like Omar Khayyam) or Architects in history made something remarkable they want them to be recognized as Persian/Iranian and not as "Muslim" or "Oriental" culture. For them it's Persian first then Muslim (or Atheist whatever). If it's one thing they don't want to be mixed up with , it's Arabs. I wouldn't be surprised if Malaysian or Indonesian felt the same. I know that I as Swedish want to be tied to Swedish culture(or Nordic) rather than Christian. Even if I was one. Or even better. When American culture has assimilated all others we wont be able to tell the difference anyway .

What about Bosnians or Albanians? You would be hard pressed to see that many of them are Muslims at all if you didn't ask them. I just don't see how the label "Muslim culture" works in practice. What about Black Muslims in USA? Aren't they first Afro-Americans/Americans? Maybe I misunderstood the whole point but then I think the separation of religion and ethnicity could have been a bit clearer in the first post .

Btw. I have one addition to my media comment

I think BLOG:s like this is the answer to the streamlined and copycat media(where did the good old dirt digging reporters go?) . I think it's a fantastic alternative to media in general. It's great to be able to follow events from the participants pov rather than having to rely on the journalists various biases. Whether it's conflicts like Iraq or something much more mundande.

Btw. To the one who said "beare of saying that to a Muslim". It's obviously from someone who doesn't know many actual muslims(and prefers to buy the media angle). I have no problem whatsoever criticizing any part of Islam/Jewdom with my muslim/jewish friends, including jokes about stuff like eating Pigs or whatever that is "sacred". I however feel no need to insult people. Mainly because it woudl serve no purpose except instigate fights. IE I don't make concetration camp jokes or similar stuff because that would be crossing a line I don't do with people I call friends.

Would it be normal in a Kerry vs Bush debate if Kerry suddenly called Bush mother a prostitute? Sure, it would be free speech but it would incredibly childish and pointless in a debate.

I don't think it's wrong to ask both sides in a conflict to act responsibly (even though I agree that in this case one side went way too far).

Marcus
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

But in truth they just took the first obvious (and wrong) answer and believe that they are smarter than those who already rejected it.

Excellent insight!

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Leauki:
Those principles can be widelly varied, which is why "Islamic Culture" doesn't compute. There's no (IF A then B) type of logic here.

What about Sufism? Ahmadian? Shiah? Sunni? (and many other variations).

marcus
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Marcus, I don't think you got the gist of what I was saying. I am not talking about individuals or people. I am talking about cultures -- a set of principles, guidelines, values, etc. I can assure you, a culture has no feelings to hurt." - Draginol

I am fine with that but I just find it hard to classify that roughly. You have (like I wrote above) ask yourself why there aren't any Bosnians blowing themselves up. Or in Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal and many other Islamic countries.

Middle East is Middle East. This is the core of the issue. Had ME been peaceful for say 50 years then I'm sure you'll see less of this. Maybe if Bush Iraq plan succeeds . Just don't expect everyone to just renounce god like that. It takes an open society for that to happen.

marcus
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
marcus: Your point about people within the cultures who differ with them doesn't change the fact that the cultures themselves are flawed. Sure, maybe they can make a new Islamic culture. That would rock. The fact is, though, that if you look in places like France, and Denmark, and England, when Muslims migrate to other coutries, they not only take those cultures with them, they want to impose their standards on the nations in question.

That goes beyond being bugs, and becomes almost viral in nature. When Islamic nations start calling for the deaths of people half a world away who do things forbidden in their culture, well, it isn't just a bad piece of software anymore. It's malware with legs.

You don't recall the problems in Bosnia? You don't recall genocide and rape on BOTH sides of that war? If Muslims are different in other parts of the world, it is because hardline Muslim culture of the Middle East was softened by its synthesis with another culture.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well you can be right. I've not the thoughts to dispute your opinions.

But personally I feel it's a more of a symptom of relative anxiety rather than an inherent flaw in Islamic culture. We should bear in mind that civilizations, subscribing to a particular culture, would rise and fall. Such as it is, the past 400 years have been mostly a story of European (and their descendant states) dominance.

Most Muslims I know pine for the golden age of Islaminc/Middle East culture, when the main advances in the sciences were usually from them and Muslims were conquering all the way to Europe. As it is, with the rise of global consciousness, Arabs, and subsequently all other Muslims who generally always look towards the Middle East for guidance are starting to feel edged out and oppressed (note I'm just saying that that's how they feel) by the long dominance of western states.

Prosperity would probably help, while in the case of the rich Arabic states, other sorts of successes that do not rely on their natural endowment of oil.

I believe in the currently unlikely event that the US is beset by poverty and loses the strength it possesses now, it would experience the same sort of reactionary surge.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Most Muslims I know pine for the golden age of Islaminc/Middle East culture, when the main advances in the sciences were usually from them and Muslims were conquering all the way to Europe. As it is, with the rise of global consciousness, Arabs, and subsequently all other Muslims who generally always look towards the Middle East for guidance are starting to feel edged out and oppressed (note I'm just saying that that's how they feel) by the long dominance of western states."


The problem is, that age is mythical for the most part, at least if you offer it as somethign that would be palatable to the modern world. Women were still abused, punishments were still horrific, Islamic law was still barbaric, Jews and Christians were still second class citizens, and other religions like Hinduism were pretty much declared open season on.

Sure, they had great advances in science and mathmatics. There is really no time in Arabic history that a modern person from Europe or America could live without being disgusted by how things were done. That's the saddest part. Things are better there now than they probably ever have been, and it is causing so much trouble that it is still endangering the whole world.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

marcus: Your point about people within the cultures who differ with them doesn't change the fact that the cultures themselves are flawed. Sure, maybe they can make a new Islamic culture. That would rock. The fact is, though, that if you look in places like France, and Denmark, and England, when Muslims migrate to other coutries, they not only take those cultures with them, they want to impose their standards on the nations in question.

But then all Cultures are flawed in that case. It was after all the "nice Western" culture which bombed millions of Vietnamese to oblivion. Wasn't it? Nevermind slavery, colonization and all other horrors like Pogromes etc. Or was this your defence of the superior "Christian Culture"? The ones that killed my heathen ancestors for not bowing to their might?

I would call it human flaws, but that's me.


That goes beyond being bugs, and becomes almost viral in nature. When Islamic nations start calling for the deaths of people half a world away who do things forbidden in their culture, well, it isn't just a bad piece of software anymore. It's malware with legs.


I can assure you that there are Danes shouting the same thing. And Britts(heard about National Front?). They sometimes wear brown shirts and sometimes not. It's the one who doesn't I worry about. Extremists never worried me, the silent majority however (like in Germany 36) does. I can assure you that the majoriy of Muslims did NOT scream for Danish deaths. Maybe boycots but so what? Fully legit way of protesting. What frightens me is European xenophobia. I have to say that USA is much better in this department. Europeans have many shameful contributions to history. Again I would rather credit all those flaws to the human species rather than any special culture.

You may claim the opposite but you are making the mistake of letting rotten apples represent way too many people. It's like mister Adolf and his gang would represent the entire German culture. Big mistake in my opinion.


You don't recall the problems in Bosnia? You don't recall genocide and rape on BOTH sides of that war? If Muslims are different in other parts of the world, it is because hardline Muslim culture of the Middle East was softened by its synthesis with another culture


Yes I recall the problems. I also recall that they are still hunting the "Western Culture" Ratko Mladic for the massacres in Srebrenica. I also recall that the majority of the guys shaking bars in Hague are not Muslims. I also recall that none of the problems were about Islamic Culture, but rather about crazy idiots behaving like Children. A good question would be. Are Bosnian Muslims Western Culture or Muslim Culture according to the posters here?

Btw. I regard Christian Culture and Islamic Culture virtually the same in this context. They are basically same type of cultures in my book.

marcus

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Btw. To the one who said "beware of saying that to a Muslim". It's obviously from someone who doesn't know many actual muslims(and prefers to buy the media angle).


Negative. I grew up in the largest Turkish city outside Turkey. As a child I knew many Muslims (class mates, friends, shop keepers etc.). Now I live in what is more or less the Arab part of Dublin.

I believe you are much too quick in your judgement. Disagreement or even sarcastic remarks do not prove an "obvious" ignorance.

But if I bought the media angle, I would probably have a higher opinion of Islam.

The individual Muslims I have known in Berlin were mostly decent people. I am very fond of Turkey. But Turkey is not a part of the Muslim culture Brad was talking about. Turkey is a mixture between Europe and Islam. And that is why Turkey is doing better than other Islamic countries.

The Arabs I know here don't know much about me. But I eat a lot and Arabs here run restaurants, and they always remember me as a good customer.

My comment (which you accidentally misquoted, please don't put words in quotes unless the words are a quote), again, was not about individual Muslims, but about the culture. In Saudi Arabia, being an atheist would cause you a lot of trouble. In Indonesia, non-Muslims are often targeted by mobs. In Turkey someone recently killed a Catholic priest.

You can be an atheist in America and Europe, but you only have that privilege because American and European culture is advanced enough to respect (or at least ignore) your beliefs, even if they differ from some sort of ideal the rulers want you to believe in.

That is exactly one of the differences between Islamic and European culture.



What about Sufism? Ahmadian? Shiah? Sunni? (and many other variations).


There are Catholics and Protestant and others in Christianity too. Yet they have many principles and traits in common.

Incidentally, I think Sufism is illegal in Saudi Arabia. And Shi'ites and Sunnis often kill each other. Another trait of Islamic culture that shows some room for improvement.